EU Referendum

[websaway]

That's called a debate







This is a problem for all of Europe, and in my opinion, not going to be solved if we leave the EU. I think the leave campaign has been based entirely on fear mongering around immigration. Not to say the remain campaign hasn't been based on fear, I just don't believe that leaving the EU will make any difference to immigration.

I notice you answered the easy bit again. Not one person on here or on the TV has answered the big question.
Where are we going to put an increase in the population the size of Birmingham every 3 years infinitum. How will we house them, where will we put them ?
Not one attempt to answer it.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Both sides have enough trouble arguing significant facts without arguing immaterial supposition.

Immaterial? It's the event which has had THE most profound effect on the public's opinion throughout the whole process.

If the 'victim' had been some 72 year old bloke who barely got noticed in parliament, do you think the effect would've been the same? Aren't the remain camp lucky it wasn't!

 

[websaway]

Immaterial? It's the event which has had THE most profound effect on the public's opinion throughout the whole process.

If the 'victim' had been some 72 year old bloke who barely got noticed in parliament, do you think the effect would've been the same? Aren't the remain camp lucky it wasn't!

Come on, I meant the supposition bit was immaterial. The event is obviously very material.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Come on, I meant the supposition bit was immaterial. The event is obviously very material.

The event is material - and so is the outcome of the event.

Whether the event happened according to the official line is debatable. I don't believe it did. What makes you certain it did?

 

[gimpydog]

Watched DC on Question Time.

He's seems to forget that he went into the negotiations demanding "an emergency brake on immigration".

& came out with "an emergency brake on unlimited numbers of immigrants having to wait a few weeks longer for their benefits".

Way to go Dave.

 

[bonusmedia]

Quick point regarding immigration numbers:

If we take the net migration number as 330,000 per year, that's roughly 0.5% of the population per year.

So in a city the size of Birmingham (about 1.1 million people) that's around 5,500 extra people.

There are around 10,000 empty houses in Birmingham.

It might also be worth pointing out that Birmingham's population peaked in 1951 at 1.13 million and apparently somehow we survived.

Half a percent per year population growth is really not all that difficult to cope with.

Rebalancing the population from the old to the young is vitally important - remember it's the young who pay for the state pensions and healthcare of the old. The baby boomers are retiring and we need healthy young workers to replace them.

Germany has much more of an issue with this since their population has been declining fast. I'd argue that's the main reason they have taken far, far higher numbers of immigrants than we have recently - we've done it more gradually over a longer period. Germany will probably have much greater difficulty adjusting and integrating their new population.

 

[websaway]

That's called a debate







This is a problem for all of Europe, and in my opinion, not going to be solved if we leave the EU. I think the leave campaign has been based entirely on fear mongering around immigration. Not to say the remain campaign hasn't been based on fear, I just don't believe that leaving the EU will make any difference to immigration.

Churchill did want a United States of Europe but did not want us to be a state.

 

[websaway]

Quick point regarding immigration numbers:

If we take the net migration number as 330,000 per year, that's roughly 0.5% of the population per year.

So in a city the size of Birmingham (about 1.1 million people) that's around 5,500 extra people.

There are around 10,000 empty houses in Birmingham.

It might also be worth pointing out that Birmingham's population peaked in 1951 at 1.13 million and apparently somehow we survived.

Half a percent per year population growth is really not all that difficult to cope with.

Rebalancing the population from the old to the young is vitally
important - remember it's the young who pay for the state pensions and healthcare of the old. The baby boomers are retiring and we need healthy young workers to replace them.

Germany has much more of an issue with this since their population has been declining fast. I'd argue that's the main reason they have taken far, far higher numbers of immigrants than we have recently - we've done it more gradually over a longer period. Germany will probably have much greater difficulty adjusting and integrating their new population.

This is helpful , I didn't realise there was a system in place to place people on an annual basis as you have suggested. So 5500 per year to Birmingham, which I'm sure they can cope with. I assume on this basis 430 will go to Kingston upon Thames every year and so on and so on, with an equal dispersion of people all around the country. Some will be delighted to be placed in Canary Wharf. This will certainly be a help and I'm pleased you think it's going to be the case.
And in Birmingham it seems we would, if we compulsorily purchased the 10,000, houses accommodate the Birmingham allocation for at least 4 years. Now how many empty houses around the country to accommodate the other 324,500 per year.
Looking forward to your input. We can tackle this together.

If you were an immigrant born in Birmingham in 1951 it's most likely you would have been born in a room shared with the rest of your family. It was only after that that the estates were built to house the immigrants that were necessary to replace the thousands killed by war and the inner city occupants who's city had been destroyed by war ( defending our sovereignty ) and to man the factories which made Birmingham one of the most industrial cities in the world.

 

[websaway]

https://neweuropeans.net/article/604/revealing-deception-about-winston-churchill

There in Switzerland, Churchill advocated for ‘a kind of United States of Europe’ and that reconciliation and a partnership between France and Germany was crucial to this notion. What Churchill actually meant by this pronouncement has been argued over, endlessly. Churchill of course is well known for his foresight on many issues but often that wisdom can be miss-construed in the contemporary world. Certainly, when Churchill talked of an ‘iron curtain’ bisecting the continent of Europe the Berlin wall was nearly twenty years in the future and even the division of Germany itself was some three years ahead. So when Churchill called for a United States of Europe he did so without a firm idea of what that might look like and, far more saliently as far as the contemporary world is concerned, nor did he specify exactly what the role of the United Kingdom would be, if any, in that unity

 

[VSC]

It was only after that that the estates were built to house the immigrants that were necessary to replace the thousands killed by war and the inner city occupants who's city had been destroyed by war ( defending our sovereignty ) and to man the factories which made Birmingham one of the most industrial cities in the world.

As I understand housing was built to replace the bombed housing and the slums that were in existence, to cope with the increased birth rate after the war, and not specifically built for immigrants ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_the_United_Kingdom

Regarding your earlier post about Britain entering the was to defend it's sovereignty - Britain declared (entered) the war in support of Poland, with whom they had a treaty, after Germany and the Soviet Union invaded.

Interestingly, Birmingham has been voted one of the World's top 10 cities:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...f-the-top-10-cities-in-the-world-9933668.html
Must be doing something right ... and

Cushman & Wakefield European Cities Monitor (2010) - A survey based on the views of 500 European businesses of Europe's leading business cities:
Overall 18th in Europe, 3rd in the UK after London and Manchester, best city to locate a business ...

 

[bonusmedia]

Birmingham has always taken in high levels of immigrants - much higher than it's 'fair share' - and has done well from it. Having lived in Birmingham and Leeds/Bradford I always felt Birmingham had done better on integration.

Of course having more jobs and more wealth always helps - at this point having been neglected and allowed to decline for many years, the North really needs a leg up.

It might be worth pointing out again that the greatest opposition to immigrants tends to be in towns, not the cities, and they tend to have a much smaller immigrant population - fear of the unknown is much greater than fear of the known.

 

[VSC]

... something that I do not believe I have seen debated on this thread is the fact that the UK is spending less as a proportion of GDP on the NHS each year.
Greece spends more as a percentage of GDP on health than the UK does!
Yet some people claim the issue is immigration ... the issue is funding.
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/politic...on-of-gdp-spent-on-nhs-falls/20006371.article
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared

... and with Education, overall GDP has hardly changed since the 1970's with spending not increasing with pupil numbers.
http://www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/fiscal_facts/public_spending_survey/education

 

[BREWSTERS]

... something that I do not believe I have seen debated on this thread is the fact that the UK is spending less as a proportion of GDP on the NHS each year.
Greece spends more as a percentage of GDP on health than the UK does!


... and with Education, overall GDP has hardly changed since the 1970's with spending not increasing with pupil numbers.

The NHS is being systematically run down and starved of funding to make the transition to private corporations an easier sell. No one can doubt that with the introduction of PFI's money is being drawn away from services to private companies who's main role is to make profit.

I don't see that in itself as being an EU issue...though when TTIP gets signed off it will be. Which is a worry.

 

[bonusmedia]

John Oliver's take - the song at the end is particularly good:

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[spiderspider]

John Oliver's take - the song at the end is particularly good:

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Normally, HBO block UK from accessing and Late Night Tonight vids, saying that the publisher doesn't allow it in your country. Strange they've allowed this one through

In normal JO style, he picks clips of stuff that happened years ago, and has been dealt with. Take that women in Kent,what has she got to do with the referendum? Also just throws an insult at Boris, and rips Gove, no mention of 'Vote Leave' or the fact that 'Big Dave's' amendments have yet to be ratified.....

Maybe its because he now lives in America.

I do agree with one thing though........ F**k the European Union.

 

[Mark84]

The British economy has started to grow again makes it an attractive people for to come

So the only thing that will ever stop them coming is when our country is as big a **** tip as the one they just come from, with as fewer opportunities for our own.

Jeeez

 

[Mark84]

Perhaps you should focus your vitriol towards the people born in this Country who don't take the opportunities they're given, complain about the ones they miss, and try to take as much as they can without contributing anything to society - I'm sure they put a great deal more strain on our economy than the immigrants.

What makes you think I'm blaming immigrants? I haven't said a bad word against them, or blamed them for anything.

The point which was clearly made was that without controls they will only stop coming when this place balances out the lack of opportunities that are available in their own countries.

It's a very factual point, what else will stop them coming? We are on our way to 80m people, 90m people, 100m people. At what point other than turning this place into an equally balanced sht tip in the future will it stop in your opinion?

 

[BREWSTERS]

The event is material - and so is the outcome of the event.

Whether the event happened according to the official line is debatable. I don't believe it did. What makes you certain it did?

No answer?

 

[websaway]

You say that like no Brits move abroad for work & study.
We are very lucky to live in this Country, we have lots of opportunities.

Perhaps you should focus your vitriol towards the people born in this Country who don't take the opportunities they're given, complain about the ones they miss, and try to take as much as they can without contributing anything to society - I'm sure they put a great deal more strain on our economy than the immigrants.

There is no vitriol in his comments. Is this the new race card. Anything one says to protect your countries position, however you want that to be is classed as being vitriolic.

 

[websaway]

Did anyone watch Jeremy Corbyns love in last night. I thought he was going to end with a rendition of" we shall overcome". If anyone's being fooled with his agenda , don't be. He voted against his own government on 500 occasions, you can not do that unless you are full of hate. He hates Blair, he hates the monarchy and he hates capitalism. He is a Marxist who sees staying in Europe as a way to spread his Marxist socialism throughout Europe. He has lost that battle in Britain and wants another shot at it. He says he is going to reform the EU. It's only a few months ago when he was derided in the commons for saying he went to Brussels and the Tories shouted, they said "who are you". What have we come to as a nation, when the establishment use this little non entity of a man to promote it's cause. Can anyone seriously see him reforming the undemocratic bloc we know as the EU. Incidentally lets cut out this rubbish about politicians going for a new form of friendly politics. Friday will see it return to normal, the law of the jungle, eat or be eaten.