EU Referendum

[spiderspider]

that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get

You are posting some rubbish lately, and you really need to be called out. MPs deserve no more or less than what they already get. Expenses, sex and business scandals fill Westminster.

Don't try turning a random murder into a 'poor MPs' statement. It won't work. Some are good, some are bad. What happened yesterday is probably a random act.

Still waiting an answer to the question I asked you yesterday.

 

[spiderspider]

All I am doing is participating vigorously on a thread on the discussion forum I visit most frequently.

Then answer the questions asked of you!

 

[websaway]

Then answer the questions asked of you!

If it's anything to do with sovereignty or immigration he will not answer.
I asked him myself for his take on sovereignty but he conveniently said he will no longer engage with me. He really only wants to engage with people who agree with him.

 

[spiderspider]

If it's anything to do with sovereignty or immigration he will not answer.
I asked him myself for his take on sovereignty but he conveniently said he will no longer engage with me. He really only wants to engage with people who agree with him.

Yeah I read that. He picks and chooses where he will engage. Its happened before with David (invincible). Its as if he feel people will just forget (lol no chance).

Yesterday, Edwin posted a link, and said it was 'Telling'. I've asked how is it telling, as it is (to me) just one mans opinion.

I've called Edwin preachy from about page 10 of this thread, but do have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

 

[websaway]

Yeah I read that. He picks and chooses where he will engage. Its happened before with David (invincible). Its as if he feel people will just forget (lol no chance).

Yesterday, Edwin posted a link, and said it was 'Telling'. I've asked how is it telling, as it is (to me) just one mans opinion.

I've called Edwin preachy from about page 10 of this thread, but do have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

Edwin might have a hidden agenda, he lives in Cambridge where presumably education is a massive consideration but one can't slight him for that. Everyone has self interest in this referendum, for some it's about EU money that they get, for others it's about positions on the gravy train that is the EU, and yet for others it's simply wanting to retain their sovereignty and/or control immigration.

 

[martin-s]

have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

I might not agree with Edwin about Europe, but I have a lot of respect for him. My comment about him campaigning was a genuine question - not intended as any sort of insult.

 

[Edwin]

Still waiting an answer to the question I asked you yesterday.

My initial post answered it, I thought, by naming the source of the comment, his position, and his view.

I said: "Interesting and telling comment in this video interview from the FT with their Chief Political Commentator."

Q: Did David Cameron make a big mistake in calling for a referendum?
A: He made a terrible mistake, and if it's a Leave vote, he will go down in history as the prime minister who made the biggest peace time mistake in post-war history.

http://video.ft.com/4943008783001/Camerons-terrible-mistake-on-Brexit/latest

I don't subscribe to the theory that opinions are all of equal weight, regardless of the background of the people putting them forward. There are experts in all walks of life and all business areas who get called upon to demonstrate their expertise in the course of their job.

But on the specific subject of the referendum, it's those experts whose expertise lies in politics, economics, constitutional and international law, trade, and finance, who have the "relevant" expertise to have more weight attributed to their commentary.

People can be master bakers, doctors, machinists, roboticists, and so on and so on - there are thousands of subjects where expertise can be significant, recognised and appreciated - but their expertise has no direct relevance to the EU referendum so it makes them no better equipped to comment on it. But those from categories such as I listed in the previous paragraph do have that additional breadth and depth of knowledge.

That's why I thought it was "telling" that the person who is the most senior member of the team responsible for reporting on "Politics" for the Financial Times, a very well respected newspaper, thought that calling the referendum was a "terrible mistake" on David Cameron's part. It's his job to analyse politics. I therefore place significantly more weight on his opinion than I would on some random person's.

Note too that I was careful in my original post to say that the comment (the one I quoted in full) was telling, not his whole interview.

 

[Edwin]

As for the accusation that I'm being selective, I've actually posted a huge amount to this thread.

I made it very clear (but perhaps still not clear enough) that I am no longer going to respond to anyone who attacks me rather than the subject at hand. Primarily that's websaway, who's burnt his books with me indefinitely for the purpose of this one thread. Because he posts a huge amount, it may feel like I'm dodging things. But there are others who are skating towards focusing on attacking me rather than things I have posted, or insulting me, and I will not respond to anyone who does so.

This is not a medium for bullying or hectoring people. I believe that even more strongly than I believe in Remain being the right choice!

Also, I'm not going to respond to every comment otherwise there's an easy danger for me to wear out a welcome that some have already made clear I have in their eyes. Goodness, can you imagine 50% of this thread being me?! (it may feel like that already, granted)

So it's a balance. If you start back at Post #1 on Page #1 and read through the 146 pages to get to this one, you should see that I have answered a very large number of points made by many different people.

I addressed sovereignty. Briefly. Because my view is that it's not the most important, or even among the most important issues in the referendum. Others may and have disagreed. But since it's not a big issue for me personally (as I have already made clear) I don't have much to contribute on that particular topic beyond "I really don't see it as the key issue here." Telling me that actually it is doesn't give me anything more to respond to, it just emphasizes that we all bring our own weights to different aspects of this debate. I fully accept that some see it as their over-riding concern (and will no doubt vote accordingly) but their differing emphasis doesn't in and of itself change my own feelings on the subject.

I'm not keen on conspiracy theories generally, so I avoided commenting on those.

Oh, and sometimes I'm actually doing other things too. On some days more than others. So by the time a point is three or four pages deep, it seems moot to bring it back up when the discussion has flowed on.

 

[Edwin]

Finally (and briefly): I do not have a "hidden agenda". Period.

Attempting to concoct a fictional one to pin on me falls under the "hectoring and bullying" comment in my previous post. It has no place on this thread. It should stop.

 

[looks]

I am sure most have seen this, http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...d-Cameron-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum-promise

 

[websaway]

I have read the papers today and there is an overwhelming view that there is no place for violence in a civilised society. However the violence of NI from the 70's through to the good Friday agreement was almost like we were living in another part of the world. What I'm saying is, it happens and should be avoided , Most people don't like division, especially violent division, although some like John Mcdonnell, who could conceivably be in government soon, find it difficult to condemn violence if he has some degree of support for the cause. I read an awful amount about the fear of the rising of the far right and would add that I have all my adult life shared that fear. So, where am I going with this ? well why, when as so many say our society is becoming more divisive do so many people in positions of responsibility want to add to the problem by increasing uncontrolled immigration.

 

[websaway]

Finally (and briefly): I do not have a "hidden agenda". Period.

Attempting to concoct a fictional one to pin on me falls under the "hectoring and bullying" comment in my previous post. It has no place on this thread. It should stop.

I would never refer to you as a "cactus", as you did me Edwin , I assume being called a cactus is an insult but it could also infer that my arguments hold more water. Anyway, you won't find me " hectoring or bullying" you, as I pointed out in my last post about you. I do think though you might slightly over react to criticism or question, especially when you are losing your argument. Debate is not won by how intelligent one is , it's about how strong the point you make and the way you present it.
Your argument is now on the austerity that will be spitefully imposed upon the most vulnerable of our country upon Brexit, but you never respond to such comments as, if the people of this country were prepared to pay the price they paid in world war two to preserve our sovereignty, why would they not be prepared to pay the price of what will amount to a shallow recession equivalent to the 8 month recession of the 1950's, to preserve sovereignty now.

 

[spiderspider]

I don't subscribe to the theory that opinions are all of equal weight, regardless of the background of the people putting them forward.

Of course not. That's why mine are so much better than yours

As for the rest of what you put, that is also your opinion. You cannot say you partake in a vigorous discussion, and then say:

"This is not a medium for bullying or hectoring people. I believe that even more strongly than I believe in Remain being the right choice!"

You either partake, and get fully involved or go away. So far, you haven't partaken in the discussion IMHO.

Sticking your head up, shouting your view, and then running away ignoring people with your fingers in your ears going 'nah nah nahhhhh' is not the way to act. I'm not saying this is what you actually do, but it sure does feel like it. Just because you 'think' you've explained yourself, does not give you the right to ignore and talk down to others. That is not a discussion.

 

[websaway]

Of course not. That's why mine are so much better than yours

As for the rest of what you put, that is also your opinion. You cannot say you partake in a vigorous discussion, and then say:



You either partake, and get fully involved or go away. So far, you haven't partaken in the discussion IMHO.

Sticking your head up, shouting your view, and then running away ignoring people with your fingers in your ears going 'nah nah nahhhhh' is not the way to act. I'm not saying this is what you actually do, but it sure does feel like it. Just because you 'think' you've explained yourself, does not give you the right to ignore and talk down to others. That is not a discussion.

He also, rather than answer a post or continue the thread, edits an older post so it reads as if he has written it earlier, so that puts the next post out of context , It renders the continuity of the thread meaningless. Look, there are more on here who want Brexit than want to remain. His argument is a one string bow and he will go for the people rather than enter into the overall argument, most of which he thinks is irrelevant because it doesn't relate to him even though it relates to the majority of the UK.

 

[websaway]

My initial post answered it, I thought, by naming the source of the comment, his position, and his view.

I said: "Interesting and telling comment in this video interview from the FT with their Chief Political Commentator."

http://video.ft.com/4943008783001/Camerons-terrible-mistake-on-Brexit/latest

I don't subscribe to the theory that opinions are all of equal weight, regardless of the background of the people putting them forward. There are experts in all walks of life and all business areas who get called upon to demonstrate their expertise in the course of their job.

But on the specific subject of the referendum, it's those experts whose expertise lies in politics, economics, constitutional and international law, trade, and finance, who have the "relevant" expertise to have more weight attributed to their commentary.

People can be master bakers, doctors, machinists, roboticists, and so on and so on - there are thousands of subjects where expertise can be significant, recognised and appreciated - but their expertise has no direct relevance to the EU referendum so it makes them no better equipped to comment on it. But those from categories such as I listed in the previous paragraph do have that additional breadth and depth of knowledge.

That's why I thought it was "telling" that the person who is the most senior member of the team responsible for reporting on "Politics" for the Financial Times, a very well respected newspaper, thought that calling the referendum was a "terrible mistake" on David Cameron's part. It's his job to analyse politics. I therefore place significantly more weight on his opinion than I would on some random person's.

Note too that I was careful in my original post to say that the comment (the one I quoted in full) was telling, not his whole interview.

When you listen to the experts you have to take into consideration the objective of their ambitions. Unless they are under oath.

 

[gimpydog]

Both campaigns have suspended their campaigning for the rest of the day. The least I can do is join them, so no more from me on the referendum today.

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though.

I am not campaigning.

An 'expert' speaks:

 

[wonder_lander]

Look, there are more on here who want Brexit than want to remain.

I assume you're basing this assumption purely on the poll results? More may wish to remain but don't want to declare it on this forum. At the end of the day our voting choices, as with all votes, is purely between each individual and the ballot box. Some may want to wear their vote on their sleeve but there will also be those who don't.

 

[websaway]

I assume you're basing this assumption purely on the poll results? More may wish to remain but don't want to declare it on this forum. At the end of the day our voting choices, as with all votes, is purely between each individual and the ballot box. Some may want to wear their vote on their sleeve but there will also be those who don't.

yes, of course.

 

[Avano Ltd]

lets be honest we are heading for a recession either way, I cant see us avoiding this.

 

[gimpydog]

lets be honest we are heading for a recession either way, I cant see us avoiding this.

We are certainly due one & it is hard to disagree with your sentiment when you see a graph like this...

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=^FTSE#symbol=^FTSE;range=my