EU Referendum

[bonusmedia]

https://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolSchoolofLawandSocialJustice/
watch the video great one about facts

Really interesting - and scary. Here's the direct video link
(If you don't know, right click videos on FB or Youtube to save location/copy address)

Deals very directly and succinctly with the 'sovereignty' issue.

He's clearly very frustrated that people are ignoring the experts - comparing Leave to Creationism is quite strong.

He deals with suggestion of bias but I suspect people will still reject his authority.
Brexit would decimate research funding - we get far more in grants from the ERC than any other country.

Never considered the fact that we've got no trade negotiators. I wonder how we would handle negotiating 70+ new trade deals at once.

He makes an interesting point that tariffs are actually relatively easy to deal with compared to regulatory barriers.

Overwhelming expert consensus and large volumes of evidence are only any good if you're interested in making an informed decision though - and perhaps too many people just aren't. It seems like more of a gut reaction to reject the status quo

 

[Edwin]

This eloquent piece about the need to remind ourselves that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get is well worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-so-are-most-mps-lets-show-them-more-respect/

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

 

[websaway]

No, not a mea culpa. A futile attempt at conciliation. I stand by every word I've said.

I'm sure your grandson is a great kid, but I assure you kids can be extremely cruel to each other about their differences. Fear of others not like us has been innate since before we came down from the trees, it kept us alive. It's only very recently we've started living with other tribes and learning to overcome it.

I've tried to explain how the context of words is as important as the words themselves but it seems like that isn't registering.

Refusing to recognise or acknowledge prejudice doesn't make it go away - and it completely overshadows any legitimate concerns over migration numbers.

Yesterday I found out that 'Britain First' has 1.5 MILLION facebook likes - far more than any mainstream party. I had no idea they even existed, I thought UKIP were bad and the BNP and EDL were the lunatic fringe - but it turns out they're trying to raise an army. They literally have 'defence' training camps. Here's some of their hate-fostering bullshit entitled "THE MIGRANT HORDE HEADING FOR BRITAIN".

Here's a good piece (in the Spectator, of all places) on the effects of inflammatory rhetoric:
"When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks."

And finally here are Jo Cox's thoughts on those 'hordes' of Syrians.
If that was your grandson, you might agree we can find some room.

Anyway - I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, so I'll give up now.

Feel free to have the last word and then maybe we can both put each other on ignore and get on with something more productive.

On the plus side this has helped push me into taking some action - so thanks for that.

I'm afraid the immigration problem is a huge issue swelling the population by the size of a city of Newcastle every year cannot be pushed aside by quoting nutty fringe politics to label everyone who is concerned with controlling immigration.
The chancellor said last night .
"People are free in this country to live their lives as they choose and express themselves without fear, society will protect their right to do so"
I am one of those people and I will protect that right.
Now you don't make it clear in the above post whether you label me racist but you do say in your previous post that you have been racist in the past and have said racist things, you might therefore be over compensating for your guilt. I don't need to, I can take a balanced view simply because I, unlike you, have no history of racism.

 

[martin-s]

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

This might not be a popular view, but I don't think suspending the debate is a good thing. The in/out decision is too big an issue for our country to put on hold, albeit for something so horrible.

It would be pretty disgusting to use Jo Cox's death for any sort of political capital, but there are only 6 days until polling day after all.

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

 

[martin-s]

Can we drop the bonusmedia vs websaway thing now though? It's boring and going nowhere.

 

[websaway]

This eloquent piece about the need to remind ourselves that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get is well worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-so-are-most-mps-lets-show-them-more-respect/

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

Not much can be said other than every person is entitled to their views on every issue. There should never be any place for any form of violence, any promotion of violence, or any condoning of violence.

 

[websaway]

This might not be a popular view, but I don't think suspending the debate is a good thing. The in/out decision is too big an issue for our country to put on hold, albeit for something so horrible.

It would be pretty disgusting to use Jo Cox's death for any sort of political capital, but there are only 6 days until polling day after all.

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

The betting odds have not moved . But I think this saddest of sad events is manna from heaven for the remain campaign.

 

[Edwin]

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

No, on both counts.

I am not campaigning.

I am not part of anything official.

All I am doing is participating vigorously on a thread on the discussion forum I visit most frequently.

With no campaigning today, there's no "new news" to share. Hence my comment about not personally talking on the referendum today.

 

[spiderspider]

that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get

You are posting some rubbish lately, and you really need to be called out. MPs deserve no more or less than what they already get. Expenses, sex and business scandals fill Westminster.

Don't try turning a random murder into a 'poor MPs' statement. It won't work. Some are good, some are bad. What happened yesterday is probably a random act.

Still waiting an answer to the question I asked you yesterday.

 

[spiderspider]

All I am doing is participating vigorously on a thread on the discussion forum I visit most frequently.

Then answer the questions asked of you!

 

[websaway]

Then answer the questions asked of you!

If it's anything to do with sovereignty or immigration he will not answer.
I asked him myself for his take on sovereignty but he conveniently said he will no longer engage with me. He really only wants to engage with people who agree with him.

 

[spiderspider]

If it's anything to do with sovereignty or immigration he will not answer.
I asked him myself for his take on sovereignty but he conveniently said he will no longer engage with me. He really only wants to engage with people who agree with him.

Yeah I read that. He picks and chooses where he will engage. Its happened before with David (invincible). Its as if he feel people will just forget (lol no chance).

Yesterday, Edwin posted a link, and said it was 'Telling'. I've asked how is it telling, as it is (to me) just one mans opinion.

I've called Edwin preachy from about page 10 of this thread, but do have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

 

[websaway]

Yeah I read that. He picks and chooses where he will engage. Its happened before with David (invincible). Its as if he feel people will just forget (lol no chance).

Yesterday, Edwin posted a link, and said it was 'Telling'. I've asked how is it telling, as it is (to me) just one mans opinion.

I've called Edwin preachy from about page 10 of this thread, but do have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

Edwin might have a hidden agenda, he lives in Cambridge where presumably education is a massive consideration but one can't slight him for that. Everyone has self interest in this referendum, for some it's about EU money that they get, for others it's about positions on the gravy train that is the EU, and yet for others it's simply wanting to retain their sovereignty and/or control immigration.

 

[martin-s]

have to agree with Martin that it feels more like he is campaigning.

I might not agree with Edwin about Europe, but I have a lot of respect for him. My comment about him campaigning was a genuine question - not intended as any sort of insult.

 

[Edwin]

Still waiting an answer to the question I asked you yesterday.

My initial post answered it, I thought, by naming the source of the comment, his position, and his view.

I said: "Interesting and telling comment in this video interview from the FT with their Chief Political Commentator."

Q: Did David Cameron make a big mistake in calling for a referendum?
A: He made a terrible mistake, and if it's a Leave vote, he will go down in history as the prime minister who made the biggest peace time mistake in post-war history.

http://video.ft.com/4943008783001/Camerons-terrible-mistake-on-Brexit/latest

I don't subscribe to the theory that opinions are all of equal weight, regardless of the background of the people putting them forward. There are experts in all walks of life and all business areas who get called upon to demonstrate their expertise in the course of their job.

But on the specific subject of the referendum, it's those experts whose expertise lies in politics, economics, constitutional and international law, trade, and finance, who have the "relevant" expertise to have more weight attributed to their commentary.

People can be master bakers, doctors, machinists, roboticists, and so on and so on - there are thousands of subjects where expertise can be significant, recognised and appreciated - but their expertise has no direct relevance to the EU referendum so it makes them no better equipped to comment on it. But those from categories such as I listed in the previous paragraph do have that additional breadth and depth of knowledge.

That's why I thought it was "telling" that the person who is the most senior member of the team responsible for reporting on "Politics" for the Financial Times, a very well respected newspaper, thought that calling the referendum was a "terrible mistake" on David Cameron's part. It's his job to analyse politics. I therefore place significantly more weight on his opinion than I would on some random person's.

Note too that I was careful in my original post to say that the comment (the one I quoted in full) was telling, not his whole interview.

 

[Edwin]

As for the accusation that I'm being selective, I've actually posted a huge amount to this thread.

I made it very clear (but perhaps still not clear enough) that I am no longer going to respond to anyone who attacks me rather than the subject at hand. Primarily that's websaway, who's burnt his books with me indefinitely for the purpose of this one thread. Because he posts a huge amount, it may feel like I'm dodging things. But there are others who are skating towards focusing on attacking me rather than things I have posted, or insulting me, and I will not respond to anyone who does so.

This is not a medium for bullying or hectoring people. I believe that even more strongly than I believe in Remain being the right choice!

Also, I'm not going to respond to every comment otherwise there's an easy danger for me to wear out a welcome that some have already made clear I have in their eyes. Goodness, can you imagine 50% of this thread being me?! (it may feel like that already, granted)

So it's a balance. If you start back at Post #1 on Page #1 and read through the 146 pages to get to this one, you should see that I have answered a very large number of points made by many different people.

I addressed sovereignty. Briefly. Because my view is that it's not the most important, or even among the most important issues in the referendum. Others may and have disagreed. But since it's not a big issue for me personally (as I have already made clear) I don't have much to contribute on that particular topic beyond "I really don't see it as the key issue here." Telling me that actually it is doesn't give me anything more to respond to, it just emphasizes that we all bring our own weights to different aspects of this debate. I fully accept that some see it as their over-riding concern (and will no doubt vote accordingly) but their differing emphasis doesn't in and of itself change my own feelings on the subject.

I'm not keen on conspiracy theories generally, so I avoided commenting on those.

Oh, and sometimes I'm actually doing other things too. On some days more than others. So by the time a point is three or four pages deep, it seems moot to bring it back up when the discussion has flowed on.

 

[Edwin]

Finally (and briefly): I do not have a "hidden agenda". Period.

Attempting to concoct a fictional one to pin on me falls under the "hectoring and bullying" comment in my previous post. It has no place on this thread. It should stop.

 

[looks]

I am sure most have seen this, http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...d-Cameron-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum-promise

 

[websaway]

I have read the papers today and there is an overwhelming view that there is no place for violence in a civilised society. However the violence of NI from the 70's through to the good Friday agreement was almost like we were living in another part of the world. What I'm saying is, it happens and should be avoided , Most people don't like division, especially violent division, although some like John Mcdonnell, who could conceivably be in government soon, find it difficult to condemn violence if he has some degree of support for the cause. I read an awful amount about the fear of the rising of the far right and would add that I have all my adult life shared that fear. So, where am I going with this ? well why, when as so many say our society is becoming more divisive do so many people in positions of responsibility want to add to the problem by increasing uncontrolled immigration.

 

[websaway]

Finally (and briefly): I do not have a "hidden agenda". Period.

Attempting to concoct a fictional one to pin on me falls under the "hectoring and bullying" comment in my previous post. It has no place on this thread. It should stop.

I would never refer to you as a "cactus", as you did me Edwin , I assume being called a cactus is an insult but it could also infer that my arguments hold more water. Anyway, you won't find me " hectoring or bullying" you, as I pointed out in my last post about you. I do think though you might slightly over react to criticism or question, especially when you are losing your argument. Debate is not won by how intelligent one is , it's about how strong the point you make and the way you present it.
Your argument is now on the austerity that will be spitefully imposed upon the most vulnerable of our country upon Brexit, but you never respond to such comments as, if the people of this country were prepared to pay the price they paid in world war two to preserve our sovereignty, why would they not be prepared to pay the price of what will amount to a shallow recession equivalent to the 8 month recession of the 1950's, to preserve sovereignty now.