EU Referendum

[VSC]

Not a bad idea. We were never healthier than under rationing, and if we go back to spending a third of our income on food we'll probably appreciate it more

Also if we reduce the number of immigrants we could give more British people good honest back-breaking work in the fields for agricultural minimum wage, that will keep people fit

What are you on about??
I made a straightforward comment that there are many obese people in this country - fact.
That if we were healthier we wouldn't be so reliant on imports and could become more food sufficient - fact.
I didn't talk about rationing or immigrants?!?!

If you had read some of my previous comments you would realise that I am in the Remain camp - why have you just jumped to conclusions?!

I specifically made a comment many pages back that one of the main reasons I will be voting remain is that I fear that all the benefits that workers in this country have obtained since we have been in the EU will be dismantled under various pretexts ...

Perhaps think before posting ...

 

[websaway]

Holly shit Sky news has just reported she died tragic

Dreadful

 

[websaway]

Really?

Do you really not see the difference between these words and describing immigrants as a horde/swarm?

I don't think you're really that unintelligent.

Just in case, let me give you an example - if I describe you as a silly old goat, that's one thing. If I describe you and your kind as scuttling cockroaches infesting the kitchen of humanity, that's another. Do you see the subtle difference?

If not you'd better learn it before you get to the care home because the staff there are going to be immigrants.

And say if I don't like being called a silly old goat. Say if I think that dehumanises me and on top of that is ageist. Do you have a monopoly on what can be said ,does it depend how you misinterpret it that decides if it's proper. If you disagree with how I term things, have you therefore the right to say I would not like to be tended to by immigrants, and are you not openly accusing me of being racist. If you wrongly accuse someone of being racist does that not make you as bad as a racist.

 

[Toonz]

From "swarms" of migrants to "illegals" "invading" our shores, any society that continually ramps up toxic and dehumanising rhetoric about 'the other' will eventually and tragically pay a price. Let's try and learn from history.

 

[VSC]

From "swarms" of migrants to "illegals" "invading" our shores, any society that continually ramps up toxic and dehumanising rhetoric about 'the other' will eventually and tragically pay a price. Let's try and learn from history.

Agreed 100%

 

[bonusmedia]

And say if I don't like being called a silly old goat. Say if I think that dehumanises me and on top of that is ageist. Do you have a monopoly on what can be said ,does it depend how you misinterpret it that decides if it's proper. If you disagree with how I term things, have you therefore the right to say I would not like to be tended to by immigrants, and are you not openly accusing me of being racist. If you wrongly accuse someone of being racist does that not make you as bad as a racist.

Maybe my mistake here was being insensitive about the word 'racist'.

To be fair - I sometimes have racist thoughts, and I've said racist things in the past. Most racist behaviour/speech is not deliberate. Prejudice is innate and difficult to overcome.

Hopefully people who actively hate others for being different are relatively rare - the problem is people going along with it or accepting it, because if it's not nipped in the bud it grows.

I think one of the reasons people are so sensitive about being called racist is because deep down they realise they are, to some degree - it's almost impossible not to be - and they don't like thinking that about themselves because it's not acceptable any more.

Anyway - websaway - I really don't care when you've called me an idiot or imbecile but you wound me up by bringing this back up and mocking me for trying to be fair minded. I don't think you are a bad person - I think what you said was insensitive and wrong.

I certainly don't have a monopoly on words or offence - no-one does - but certain things are very obviously divisive and offensive and if someone doesn't realise that, others have to tell them.

Racist or not, it's not right to call immigrants a 'swarm' or 'horde'. Every time someone allows that it gives it legitimacy, and people end up thinking it's normal.

This is not pointless pedantry or 'pc gone mad' - it's wanting things to be fair. I think most British people want things to be fair and it's one of the best things about this country.

 

[BREWSTERS]

I specifically made a comment many pages back that one of the main reasons I will be voting remain is that I fear that all the benefits that workers in this country have obtained since we have been in the EU will be dismantled under various pretexts ...

See the bigger picture....everyone's rights are at risk by staying in, because we have no control over our sovereignty, and therefore the laws of our country.

No one on here in the remain camp knows anything at all about the history of the EU. To understand where it's heading you need to know where it came from. Don't ask me to tell you because you probably won't believe it coming from me. Plus, it takes a long time to get the full picture. But if you don't like being deceived, you should take the time.

 

[websaway]

Maybe my mistake here was being insensitive about the word 'racist'.

To be fair - I sometimes have racist thoughts, and I've said racist things in the past. Most racist behaviour/speech is not deliberate. Prejudice is innate and difficult to overcome.

Hopefully people who actively hate others for being different are relatively rare - the problem is people going along with it or accepting it, because if it's not nipped in the bud it grows.

I think one of the reasons people are so sensitive about being called racist is because deep down they realise they are, to some degree - it's almost impossible not to be - and they don't like thinking that about themselves because it's not acceptable any more.

Anyway - websaway - I really don't care when you've called me an idiot or imbecile but you wound me up by bringing this back up and mocking me for trying to be fair minded. I don't think you are a bad person - I think what you said was insensitive and wrong.

I certainly don't have a monopoly on words or offence - no-one does - but certain things are very obviously divisive and offensive and if someone doesn't realise that, others have to tell them.

Racist or not, it's not right to call immigrants a 'swarm' or 'horde'. Every time someone allows that it gives it legitimacy, and people end up thinking it's normal.

This is not pointless pedantry or 'pc gone mad' - it's wanting things to be fair. I think most British people want things to be fair and it's one of the best things about this country.

Do I detect a mea culpa.
On the awful occasion today of Jo Cox murder the commentator on sky news described the scene as a swarm of police. Now I know what you are saying but just because some people want to brand people as racist and pick words and phrases that can become racist in meaning, doesn't mean that people who are not racist have to accept that. If I say hordes of Syrians are streaming across from Syria to Turkey. Just because someone says that's wrong in their opinion does not mean I have to agree and can't say it .
My question is how could anyone hate someone for being different, opposites attract, everyone is different. I asked one of my 6 year old grandsons the next day to describe the little boy we were playing football with, not once in all his attempts did he say he was black, children don't see a difference unless it's initially brought to their attention. So I disagree that it's impossible to not be racist , it's easy, don't think it, don't entertain it, don't be it, and don't misinterpret it, have a clear definition of what it is . If I don't want this country to grow in population by a city the size of Newcastle every year or by the size of Birmingham every 3 or 4 years , that makes me sensible , not racist.
If people who want for some reason the country to grow by that amount and choose to play the racist card as a method of muffling my point , I won't allow it.

 

[dougs]

Great video watch it

https://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolSchoolofLawandSocialJustice/

 

[dougs]

https://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolSchoolofLawandSocialJustice/
watch the video great one about facts

 

[bonusmedia]

Do I detect a mea culpa.
On the awful occasion today of Jo Cox murder the commentator on sky news described the scene as a swarm of police. Now I know what you are saying but just because some people want to brand people as racist and pick words and phrases that can become racist in meaning, doesn't mean that people who are not racist have to accept that. If I say hordes of Syrians are streaming across from Syria to Turkey. Just because someone says that's wrong in their opinion does not mean I have to agree and can't say it .
My question is how could anyone hate someone for being different, opposites attract, everyone is different. I asked one of my 6 year old grandsons the next day to describe the little boy we were playing football with, not once in all his attempts did he say he was black, children don't see a difference unless it's initially brought to their attention. So I disagree that it's impossible to not be racist , it's easy, don't think it, don't entertain it, don't be it, and don't misinterpret it, have a clear definition of what it is . If I don't want this country to grow in population by a city the size of Newcastle every year or by the size of Birmingham every 3 or 4 years , that makes me sensible , not racist.
If people who want for some reason the country to grow by that amount and choose to play the racist card as a method of muffling my point , I won't allow it.

No, not a mea culpa. A futile attempt at conciliation. I stand by every word I've said.

I'm sure your grandson is a great kid, but I assure you kids can be extremely cruel to each other about their differences. Fear of others not like us has been innate since before we came down from the trees, it kept us alive. It's only very recently we've started living with other tribes and learning to overcome it.

I've tried to explain how the context of words is as important as the words themselves but it seems like that isn't registering.

Refusing to recognise or acknowledge prejudice doesn't make it go away - and it completely overshadows any legitimate concerns over migration numbers.

Yesterday I found out that 'Britain First' has 1.5 MILLION facebook likes - far more than any mainstream party. I had no idea they even existed, I thought UKIP were bad and the BNP and EDL were the lunatic fringe - but it turns out they're trying to raise an army. They literally have 'defence' training camps. Here's some of their hate-fostering bullshit entitled "THE MIGRANT HORDE HEADING FOR BRITAIN".

Here's a good piece (in the Spectator, of all places) on the effects of inflammatory rhetoric:
"When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks."

And finally here are Jo Cox's thoughts on those 'hordes' of Syrians.
If that was your grandson, you might agree we can find some room.

Anyway - I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, so I'll give up now.

Feel free to have the last word and then maybe we can both put each other on ignore and get on with something more productive.

On the plus side this has helped push me into taking some action - so thanks for that.

 

[VSC]

See the bigger picture....everyone's rights are at risk by staying in, because we have no control over our sovereignty, and therefore the laws of our country.

No one on here in the remain camp knows anything at all about the history of the EU. To understand where it's heading you need to know where it came from. Don't ask me to tell you because you probably won't believe it coming from me. Plus, it takes a long time to get the full picture. But if you don't like being deceived, you should take the time.

Actually it is because I see the bigger picture that I am voting remain. I believe that the UK is at greater risk by leaving. The UK has been on the win side of EU voting on 97% of the time, and yes, on the losing side on 3%of the time. Better ratios than UK elections under the first past the post system.

And how can you accuse me of not knowing anything about the history of the EU? Do you know me? Do you know my and my family history? Do you have any idea of what research I have done? Just because I have a different view do not be so condescending -

 

[bonusmedia]

https://www.facebook.com/LiverpoolSchoolofLawandSocialJustice/
watch the video great one about facts

Really interesting - and scary. Here's the direct video link
(If you don't know, right click videos on FB or Youtube to save location/copy address)

Deals very directly and succinctly with the 'sovereignty' issue.

He's clearly very frustrated that people are ignoring the experts - comparing Leave to Creationism is quite strong.

He deals with suggestion of bias but I suspect people will still reject his authority.
Brexit would decimate research funding - we get far more in grants from the ERC than any other country.

Never considered the fact that we've got no trade negotiators. I wonder how we would handle negotiating 70+ new trade deals at once.

He makes an interesting point that tariffs are actually relatively easy to deal with compared to regulatory barriers.

Overwhelming expert consensus and large volumes of evidence are only any good if you're interested in making an informed decision though - and perhaps too many people just aren't. It seems like more of a gut reaction to reject the status quo

 

[Edwin]

This eloquent piece about the need to remind ourselves that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get is well worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-so-are-most-mps-lets-show-them-more-respect/

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

 

[websaway]

No, not a mea culpa. A futile attempt at conciliation. I stand by every word I've said.

I'm sure your grandson is a great kid, but I assure you kids can be extremely cruel to each other about their differences. Fear of others not like us has been innate since before we came down from the trees, it kept us alive. It's only very recently we've started living with other tribes and learning to overcome it.

I've tried to explain how the context of words is as important as the words themselves but it seems like that isn't registering.

Refusing to recognise or acknowledge prejudice doesn't make it go away - and it completely overshadows any legitimate concerns over migration numbers.

Yesterday I found out that 'Britain First' has 1.5 MILLION facebook likes - far more than any mainstream party. I had no idea they even existed, I thought UKIP were bad and the BNP and EDL were the lunatic fringe - but it turns out they're trying to raise an army. They literally have 'defence' training camps. Here's some of their hate-fostering bullshit entitled "THE MIGRANT HORDE HEADING FOR BRITAIN".

Here's a good piece (in the Spectator, of all places) on the effects of inflammatory rhetoric:
"When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks."

And finally here are Jo Cox's thoughts on those 'hordes' of Syrians.
If that was your grandson, you might agree we can find some room.

Anyway - I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, so I'll give up now.

Feel free to have the last word and then maybe we can both put each other on ignore and get on with something more productive.

On the plus side this has helped push me into taking some action - so thanks for that.

I'm afraid the immigration problem is a huge issue swelling the population by the size of a city of Newcastle every year cannot be pushed aside by quoting nutty fringe politics to label everyone who is concerned with controlling immigration.
The chancellor said last night .
"People are free in this country to live their lives as they choose and express themselves without fear, society will protect their right to do so"
I am one of those people and I will protect that right.
Now you don't make it clear in the above post whether you label me racist but you do say in your previous post that you have been racist in the past and have said racist things, you might therefore be over compensating for your guilt. I don't need to, I can take a balanced view simply because I, unlike you, have no history of racism.

 

[martin-s]

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

This might not be a popular view, but I don't think suspending the debate is a good thing. The in/out decision is too big an issue for our country to put on hold, albeit for something so horrible.

It would be pretty disgusting to use Jo Cox's death for any sort of political capital, but there are only 6 days until polling day after all.

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

 

[martin-s]

Can we drop the bonusmedia vs websaway thing now though? It's boring and going nowhere.

 

[websaway]

This eloquent piece about the need to remind ourselves that MPs are deserved of more respect than they get is well worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-so-are-most-mps-lets-show-them-more-respect/

(No campaigning is going on today, so I won't be commenting on the referendum itself.)

Not much can be said other than every person is entitled to their views on every issue. There should never be any place for any form of violence, any promotion of violence, or any condoning of violence.

 

[websaway]

This might not be a popular view, but I don't think suspending the debate is a good thing. The in/out decision is too big an issue for our country to put on hold, albeit for something so horrible.

It would be pretty disgusting to use Jo Cox's death for any sort of political capital, but there are only 6 days until polling day after all.

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

The betting odds have not moved . But I think this saddest of sad events is manna from heaven for the remain campaign.

 

[Edwin]

It has only just occurred to me that you have actually been campaigning rather than debating though. Are you part of something official?

No, on both counts.

I am not campaigning.

I am not part of anything official.

All I am doing is participating vigorously on a thread on the discussion forum I visit most frequently.

With no campaigning today, there's no "new news" to share. Hence my comment about not personally talking on the referendum today.