EU Referendum

[bonusmedia]

Ask, why are prices are so low? Because of cheap imports from Europe....nothing we can do about that at the moment. Hopefully that'll change soon.

From your own information, the subsidies are designed to just let farmers scrape a living. Ask those same farmers if they'd rather be getting a fair price for their goods, and allowed to farm to potential....or getting handouts. What do you think they'll say?

It's just not that simple. Unfortunately anyone offering easy answers is likely to be wrong

 

[BeachLife]

Ask, why are prices are so low? Because of cheap imports from Europe....nothing we can do about that at the moment. Hopefully that'll change soon.

From your own information, the subsidies are designed to just let farmers scrape a living. Ask those same farmers if they'd rather be getting a fair price for their goods, and allowed to farm to potential....or getting handouts. What do you think they'll say?

So your argument has gone from farmers could lower prices outside of the EU, to farmers could raise prices out of the EU?

Why food prices are so low is a complex problem, as are most questions regarding the EU. I would pitch for supermarkets, and public attitudes.

I have no problem with the leave camp stating that sovereignty matters above all things, no matter what the economic cost.

I have a great problem with the leave camp denying report after report, from those who have been in their industry for many years, stating that leaving will likely cost them economically.

If only a reasonable percentage of these reports are reasonably correct, then leaving will have an economic cost to this country. Forget strength of the pound, GDP, balance of trade, or any other measures. What we are talking about is hard working British people losing jobs, or houses, or pensions. Economic hardship is not something seen in statistics published in the FT, it is something felt by people in your community.

 

[gimpydog]

Currently I will vote leave.

People in the UK do not trust politicians any more, ever since the expenses scandal. Politicians still think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the public and continue lying, corrupting, self serving and underperforming. Are they so out of touch not to realise that all people want honesty and transparency?

With Osborne now threatening tax rises and budget cuts if we leave the EU they are really getting desperate, what next, no more free bus passes or fuel allowance for pensioners? The removal of all disabled facilities in public places?

If we leave it will partly be a revolt against the political elite, big business, hypocrisy, greed and a culture of lies. Illogical? maybe..but understandable.

This is how politics used to work....

but the times, they are a-changing.

 

[bonusmedia]

This is how politics used to work, but the times, they are a-changing.

View attachment 1205

I don't think politicians are less honest - I think they are under 100X as much scrutiny, and get caught out more often. It's not an easy job and you really can't win, since everyone is out to demonize you and seize on the slightest thing you get wrong - they're only human.

Politics is about managing expectations and trying to unite people with diverse views. Whatever they say or do, a large number of people will hate them for it.

People say they want 'the truth' - but then they punish people who actually tell it, and elect those who tell the lie they want to hear

 

[gimpydog]

I have no problem with the leave camp stating that sovereignty matters above all things, no matter what the economic cost.

I have a great problem with the leave camp denying report after report, from those who have been in their industry for many years, stating that leaving will likely cost them economically.

Farmers in the UK were subsidised before we joined the Common Market, so it seems perfectly plausible, if not probable, that they would continue to be subsidised if we leave the EU.

What is certain, is that it would be the UK government that decided on what & who to subsidise based solely on our needs & preferences.

 

[gimpydog]

People say they want 'the truth' - but then they punish people who actually tell it, and elect those who tell the lie they want to hear

Yes, I thought the cartoon illustrated that viewpoint rather well.

 

[gimpydog]

Oh, I don't know Richard. We seem to be doing OK without you.

 

[bonusmedia]

Yes, I thought the cartoon illustrated that viewpoint rather well.

Presumably you feel the ones you agree with aren't lying though? How do you work out which is which?
Do you think the 90%+ of economists against Brexit are lying, or just incorrect?

 

[bonusmedia]

View attachment 1206

Oh, I don't know Richard. We seem to be doing OK without you.

I don't understand what you mean by this? Are you suggesting Branson doesn't do anything for the UK?

 

[gimpydog]

Do you think the 90%+ of economists against Brexit are lying, or just incorrect?

There is no truth or lies with economic forecasts, is there? Just different opinions.

Let us judge them on there past records, or wait a while longer & judge them on these forecasts.

 

[websaway]

How smart is it of Corbyn not go in for the kill just yet.
You could not put it past him to help the leave vote next week and ensure the Tories are left in turmoil. He has always been difficult in towing the line. Skinner went over and Mann spoke on behalf of the Party and said they would help vote down Osborn's emergency budget.

 

[BeachLife]

Farmers in the UK were subsidised before we joined the Common Market, so it seems perfectly plausible, if not probable, that they would continue to be subsidised if we leave the EU.

Yes so they say, whilst paying extra into the NHS, schooling, compensating for trade tariffs, abolishing VAT on petrol and energy etc. All whilst handling the lower tax receipts due to the "shallow recession".

Note it is politicians alone making these promises, who I wouldn't trust to tell me if it is day or night, ultimately they are all self serving. Whereas it is universities, independent bodies, industry organisations and businesses themselves warning of the costs ot exit.

 

[gimpydog]

I don't understand what you mean by this? Are you suggesting Branson doesn't do anything for the UK?

No, I'm stating that he is no longer resident in the UK for tax purposes & is ineligible to vote in this referendum

Therefore, his opinions carry very little no weight.

 

[bonusmedia]

There is no truth or lies with economic forecasts, is there? Just different opinions.

Let us judge them on there past records, or wait a while longer & judge them on these forecasts.

People can be honest or dishonest in their opinions. It might well be that some experts are being dishonest - but it doesn't seem likely they all are. To get back to your cartoon the vast majority of the world's scientists have been saying for a long time that climate change is 'the inconvenient truth' - a lot of people just don't want to hear it.

 

[bonusmedia]

No, I'm stating that he is no longer resident in the UK for tax purposes & is ineligible to vote in this referendum

Therefore his opinions carry very little no weight in my opinion.

I think they carry quite a lot of weight, since he has numerous companies in the UK and employs huge numbers of people here - and also since he is a respected strategist and massively successful businessman. I think we can assume he knows a bit about the numbers.

I don't like the fact he's resident offshore but that's up to him - and I don't resent his enormous success. He's done more for this country than you or I can ever hope to

 

[bonusmedia]

How smart is it of Corbyn not go in for the kill just yet.
You could not put it past him to help the leave vote next week and ensure the Tories are left in turmoil. He has always been difficult in towing the line. Skinner went over and Mann spoke on behalf of the Party and said they would help vote down Osborn's emergency budget.

Labour are anti-austerity, of course they won't support more austerity

 

[dougs]

Don't believe in sovereignty? Don't believe in being able to make, change or repeal the laws of your own country? That's crazy to me.

""Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety (money), deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin.

Sovereignty is not Liberty

 

[dougs]

I think if someone says they don't believe in sovereignty on the remain side ,their opinions are as valid to the argument as a self confessed racist on the leave side.

agreed

 

[BREWSTERS]

Sovereignty is not Liberty

It is to a degree. What's certain is that having no sovereignty is the same as having no liberty...and no opportunity to do anything about it.

 

[dougs]

A mate came over today and was very pro LEAVE and he gave me the best argument to leave I have ever heard:

After we leave things will go into turmoil
Things will be a mess
Most people are not aware of the shit they will create if we leave
Out of the shit we better learn to do something good or we are stuffed
He believes we will do something good as that is what humanity as done over years.


Doug