EU Referendum

[BREWSTERS]

They may break the rules, but at least the rules are there. Certainly they can undercut us because pay rates are lower. Would you rather pay twice the price* for British goods? If enough people do that then we could sustain all our own industries - but realistically most won't, or can't.

CAP paying farmers not to farm - part of the reason for this is to retain farming capacity - if it becomes uneconomical to run farms without subsidy then we lose farms, and we lose 'food security' - i.e. the ability to adapt to a changing world, and restart farming if needed. Another issue is managing gluts and oversupplies in the market which damage prices (butter mountains, wine lakes etc). It's certainly not an efficient market - but sometimes the most efficient market is not the best thing.

There are huge problems with the CAP and it desperately needs reform, but if we leave it will still affect us and we can't do much about it.

*not an exact figure

Makes a mockery of having the rules then.

If farmers were allowed to farm to their potential it makes sense that they could produce more at a lower price to the consumer.

And remember, those subsidies aren't a gift from Europe....it's our money they're using. In effect, you and I are paying UK farmers to not farm, whilst helping farmers elsewhere to sell into our market. Utter madness.

 

[websaway]

Anyone care to give an opinion on the benefit of celebrities like
Bob Geldof and Eddie Izzard to the remain campaign.
help or hindrance.

 

[BeachLife]

If farmers were allowed to farm to their potential it makes sense that they could produce more at a lower price to the consumer.

If you don't believe any experts, try asking a farmer. The CAP keeps small and medium farmers incomes up as food prices are so low already it's impossible for them to make a living. If that is good or bad thing will depend on your viewpoint.

Here is the view of the Farmers Union of Wales, which warns of poverty in Welsh rural communities. I live in a farmers market town in Wales, and have asked a couple of them about it. Multi-generational farms, hard working decent people, are very scared of leaving. They've been on the precipice for some time, and can't see how they can continue without the subsidies.

I'm not defending the CAP per se, it's a very strange thing, but don't just dismiss it as self interested experts (pfft, what would they know?), simply because you've spent 5 minutes considering it and have come up with a solution that "makes sense".

 

[newguy]

Anyone care to give an opinion on the benefit of celebrities like
Bob Geldof and Eddie Izzard to the remain campaign.
help or hindrance.

I very much admire their charity work and bold approach to things, but I thought Eddie Izzard's Question Time appearance was disasterous. His passion and singlemindedness come off really badly whenever he talks about Europe.

 

[spiderspider]

Anyone care to give an opinion on the benefit of celebrities like
Bob Geldof and Eddie Izzard to the remain campaign.
help or hindrance.

The picture circulating of Geldof sticking 2 fingers up at the Leave side, has helped Farrage today, thats for sure.

Whilst I don't agree with Izzard's stance, he has been around a lot of uni's in the past month, trying to encourage more people to sign up and vote. Thats a good point for him, as he took it to the young people (lol im in my 30's calling uni students 'young people'), unlike many others who just said it.

 

[BREWSTERS]

If you don't believe any experts, try asking a farmer. The CAP keeps small and medium farmers incomes up as food prices are so low already it's impossible for them to make a living. If that is good or bad thing will depend on your viewpoint.

Here is the view of the Farmers Union of Wales, which warns of poverty in Welsh rural communities. I live in a farmers market town in Wales, and have asked a couple of them about it. Multi-generational farms, hard working decent people, are very scared of leaving. They've been on the precipice for some time, and can't see how they can continue without the subsidies.

I'm not defending the CAP per se, it's a very strange thing, but don't just dismiss it as self interested experts (pfft, what would they know?), simply because you've spent 5 minutes considering it and have come up with a solution that "makes sense".

Ask, why are prices are so low? Because of cheap imports from Europe....nothing we can do about that at the moment. Hopefully that'll change soon.

From your own information, the subsidies are designed to just let farmers scrape a living. Ask those same farmers if they'd rather be getting a fair price for their goods, and allowed to farm to potential....or getting handouts. What do you think they'll say?

 

[spiderspider]

Quick Google to fond it,incase you not seen it:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ead-rival-flotillas-bizarre-clash-Thames.html

 

[bonusmedia]

The picture circulating of Geldof sticking 2 fingers up at the Leave side, has helped Farrage today, thats for sure.

Whilst I don't agree with Izzard's stance, he has been around a lot of uni's in the past month, trying to encourage more people to sign up and vote. Thats a good point for him, as he took it to the young people (lol im in my 30's calling uni students 'young people'), unlike many others who just said it.

I doubt it, it's his signature move, it's exactly what people expect of Geldof

 

[bonusmedia]

Ask, why are prices are so low? Because of cheap imports from Europe....nothing we can do about that at the moment. Hopefully that'll change soon.

From your own information, the subsidies are designed to just let farmers scrape a living. Ask those same farmers if they'd rather be getting a fair price for their goods, and allowed to farm to potential....or getting handouts. What do you think they'll say?

It's just not that simple. Unfortunately anyone offering easy answers is likely to be wrong

 

[BeachLife]

Ask, why are prices are so low? Because of cheap imports from Europe....nothing we can do about that at the moment. Hopefully that'll change soon.

From your own information, the subsidies are designed to just let farmers scrape a living. Ask those same farmers if they'd rather be getting a fair price for their goods, and allowed to farm to potential....or getting handouts. What do you think they'll say?

So your argument has gone from farmers could lower prices outside of the EU, to farmers could raise prices out of the EU?

Why food prices are so low is a complex problem, as are most questions regarding the EU. I would pitch for supermarkets, and public attitudes.

I have no problem with the leave camp stating that sovereignty matters above all things, no matter what the economic cost.

I have a great problem with the leave camp denying report after report, from those who have been in their industry for many years, stating that leaving will likely cost them economically.

If only a reasonable percentage of these reports are reasonably correct, then leaving will have an economic cost to this country. Forget strength of the pound, GDP, balance of trade, or any other measures. What we are talking about is hard working British people losing jobs, or houses, or pensions. Economic hardship is not something seen in statistics published in the FT, it is something felt by people in your community.

 

[gimpydog]

Currently I will vote leave.

People in the UK do not trust politicians any more, ever since the expenses scandal. Politicians still think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the public and continue lying, corrupting, self serving and underperforming. Are they so out of touch not to realise that all people want honesty and transparency?

With Osborne now threatening tax rises and budget cuts if we leave the EU they are really getting desperate, what next, no more free bus passes or fuel allowance for pensioners? The removal of all disabled facilities in public places?

If we leave it will partly be a revolt against the political elite, big business, hypocrisy, greed and a culture of lies. Illogical? maybe..but understandable.

This is how politics used to work....

but the times, they are a-changing.

 

[bonusmedia]

This is how politics used to work, but the times, they are a-changing.

View attachment 1205

I don't think politicians are less honest - I think they are under 100X as much scrutiny, and get caught out more often. It's not an easy job and you really can't win, since everyone is out to demonize you and seize on the slightest thing you get wrong - they're only human.

Politics is about managing expectations and trying to unite people with diverse views. Whatever they say or do, a large number of people will hate them for it.

People say they want 'the truth' - but then they punish people who actually tell it, and elect those who tell the lie they want to hear

 

[gimpydog]

I have no problem with the leave camp stating that sovereignty matters above all things, no matter what the economic cost.

I have a great problem with the leave camp denying report after report, from those who have been in their industry for many years, stating that leaving will likely cost them economically.

Farmers in the UK were subsidised before we joined the Common Market, so it seems perfectly plausible, if not probable, that they would continue to be subsidised if we leave the EU.

What is certain, is that it would be the UK government that decided on what & who to subsidise based solely on our needs & preferences.

 

[gimpydog]

People say they want 'the truth' - but then they punish people who actually tell it, and elect those who tell the lie they want to hear

Yes, I thought the cartoon illustrated that viewpoint rather well.

 

[gimpydog]

Oh, I don't know Richard. We seem to be doing OK without you.

 

[bonusmedia]

Yes, I thought the cartoon illustrated that viewpoint rather well.

Presumably you feel the ones you agree with aren't lying though? How do you work out which is which?
Do you think the 90%+ of economists against Brexit are lying, or just incorrect?

 

[bonusmedia]

View attachment 1206

Oh, I don't know Richard. We seem to be doing OK without you.

I don't understand what you mean by this? Are you suggesting Branson doesn't do anything for the UK?

 

[gimpydog]

Do you think the 90%+ of economists against Brexit are lying, or just incorrect?

There is no truth or lies with economic forecasts, is there? Just different opinions.

Let us judge them on there past records, or wait a while longer & judge them on these forecasts.

 

[websaway]

How smart is it of Corbyn not go in for the kill just yet.
You could not put it past him to help the leave vote next week and ensure the Tories are left in turmoil. He has always been difficult in towing the line. Skinner went over and Mann spoke on behalf of the Party and said they would help vote down Osborn's emergency budget.

 

[BeachLife]

Farmers in the UK were subsidised before we joined the Common Market, so it seems perfectly plausible, if not probable, that they would continue to be subsidised if we leave the EU.

Yes so they say, whilst paying extra into the NHS, schooling, compensating for trade tariffs, abolishing VAT on petrol and energy etc. All whilst handling the lower tax receipts due to the "shallow recession".

Note it is politicians alone making these promises, who I wouldn't trust to tell me if it is day or night, ultimately they are all self serving. Whereas it is universities, independent bodies, industry organisations and businesses themselves warning of the costs ot exit.