EU Referendum

[bonusmedia]

Trade offs with our sovereignty ?

Yes.

For example, we trade the right to be defended by our Nato allies for their right to be defended by us. We don't make a sovereign decision on each case.

 

[Edwin]

Austerity and inequality are really serious issues, but they are largely down to Government policy, not our membership of the EU. They are certainly not going to be helped by having a new government of Tories from the far right

I wonder if that will be the Government's last roll of the dice next week, if the polls are still moving in the wrong direction... Actually stand up in parliament and say "You know what, folks: the reason you're feeling the pinch is because of OUR policies" (i.e. tell the truth).

If Cameron and Osborne figure to be out of a job by Friday anyway, and they believe in the UK passionately enough, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they make an admission along those lines. Osborne pretty much admitted today that the "example" emergency budget he put forward was a career-damaging move. Hats off to him for putting his beliefs on the EU ahead of personal ambition (and I say that as someone who doesn't vote Conservative).

 

[websaway]

Yes.

For example, we trade the right to be defended by our Nato allies for their right to be defended by us. We don't make a sovereign decision on each case.

Parliament has to agree to go to war. That is where our sovereignty lies.
Parliament has to abide by EU rules. That is where we lose our sovereignty our democracy our rights to self determination.

 

[Avano Ltd]

I have to say the tone of the posts on this forum are toxic, please remember people have an opinion and it should be respected, is this site actively moderated?

 

[newguy]

Far less well publicised was what a senior German CDU MP told Der Spiegel.

Juergen Hardt, the party's foreign policy spokesman, offered an intriguing glimpse into how Berlin may be preparing for Brexit.

If the UK votes to leave, Mr Hardt said, then the EU should gauge possible action to prevent a British exit from becoming a reality. Brussels shouldn't close the door right away.

One way or another, Germany wants to keep Britain close.

- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526839

To be this sounds like a leave vote could very well result in more concessions and a second referendum.

 

[websaway]

I wonder if that will be the Government's last roll of the dice next week, if the polls are still moving in the wrong direction... Actually stand up in parliament and say "You know what, folks: the reason you're feeling the pinch is because of OUR policies" (i.e. tell the truth).

If Cameron and Osborne figure to be out of a job by Friday anyway, and they believe in the UK passionately enough, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they make an admission along those lines. Osborne pretty much admitted today that the "example" emergency budget he put forward was a career-damaging move. Hats off to him for putting his beliefs on the EU ahead of personal ambition (and I say that as someone who doesn't vote Conservative).

Cameron went to Brussels to seek reform, he did not get any but did not want to be the one to reside over us leaving the EU. So he promised on the basis of changes to migrant benefits and one or two other changes that he thought would win over Johnson and which did win over May,that he would throw his full weight behind a remain campaign. Both him and the Chancellor have been everything other than statesmanlike and honourable. They have completely underestimated the will of the people, and even worse than that, and what is unforgivable, he has tried to pull the wool over their eyes, instead favouring the rich to get the remain vote through. He has not lost the vote yet but any backtrack he makes will simply discredit him more.

 

[bonusmedia]

Parliament has to agree to go to war. That is where our sovereignty lies.
Parliament has to abide by EU rules. That is where we lose our sovereignty our democracy our rights to self determination.

I suppose parliament could decide not to defend a Nato ally, but we would be breaking the terms of the treaty.

If that's your definition of retaining sovereignty, we've already got it - parliament could decide to just break our EU treaties. Of course it would be the end of us as an economic, military and cultural power and we'd be the laughing stock of the world.

 

[spiderspider]

is this site actively moderated?

It used to be.

@admin @Adam H About time this was closed???? It got preachy at page 10, and at 134 is just the same rubbish being spewed back up again.

 

[martin-s]

@admin @Adam H About time this was closed????

Agreed, it's all going around in circles now - and getting more vicious with each loop.

 

[bonusmedia]

No-one has to read it. I do agree the insults should stop

 

[Edwin]

It's a fantastic thread. Very interesting.

But the point about tone is well made. There are ways to debate without making it personal, as most but sadly not all contributors have demonstrated.

 

[boxfish]

It used to be.

@admin @Adam H About time this was closed???? It got preachy at page 10, and at 134 is just the same rubbish being spewed back up again.

It's the only thread with any activity though - ad clicks need to come from somewhere if none of you lot are buying membership ;-)

 

[websaway]

I suppose parliament could decide not to defend a Nato ally, but we would be breaking the terms of the treaty.

If that's your definition of retaining sovereignty, we've already got it - parliament could decide to just break our EU treaties. Of course it would be the end of us as an economic, military and cultural power and we'd be the laughing stock of the world.

Yes OK then.

 

[websaway]

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
I'm sorry if I've been personal with anyone, never the intention to offend but I may have done.
I don't mind anyone being personal with me , go to it.
One can't get involved in debate and be too sensitive.

 

[PaulK]

it's an emotive subject - let the thread roll on without moderation, too many things are moderated nowadays!

Don't like it don't read it

 

[denchomsky]

Who do you think pays the price for all this?

Using the figures in your scenario, anything imported from the EU would cost consumers +10% from the forex differential, and another +10% from tariffs. Inflation would sky-rocket! And that would necessitate much higher interest rates, leading to a wave of foreclosures because people couldn't keep up with their mortgage repayments any more.

House prices would potentially fall, this would of course not help the people that have opted to take out massive mortgages to buy houses that they can't afford, (lenders to advise to factor in a 3% or so interest rate rise before you borrow) but it might help those trying to get on the property ladder, so there would be winners and losers.

Also 'if' net immigration was to fall following a brexit then theoretically there would be less demand, reducing house prices meaning that people do not have to take out massive mortgages that they cannot afford.

 

[websaway]

It's a fantastic thread. Very interesting.

But the point about tone is well made. There are ways to debate without making it personal, as most but sadly not all contributors have demonstrated.

Edwin, your put downs are eloquently constructed but can also be very offensive, if picked up. It's an art you've mastered.

 

[Adam H]

It used to be.

@admin @Adam H About time this was closed???? It got preachy at page 10, and at 134 is just the same rubbish being spewed back up again.

It's not for me to decide bud. I deal with minor stuff like spam if admin isnt around to help out but im not officially a moderator to make a decision to close a real debate. I'm sure admin will be along shortly, I know he's on holiday at the moment so probably only checks on things in the evening.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Well I haven't got precise figures for every single thing it's possible to make, sorry. But I can tell you that we can't produce a lot of goods anywhere near as cheaply somewhere like India - because we don't pay people $2 per day.

EDIT - bad example obviously, but the same holds true for plenty of EU goods

Some East European countries within the EU pay hourly rates that are a fraction of what we pay by law....but we have to accept their goods. This is an example of why the EU is failing.

 

[websaway]

I think when things get slightly out of hand is when people gang up on one person, I personally don't mind but others might get hurt and it's something I try to avoid.