EU Referendum

[BREWSTERS]

I wonder if that will be the Government's last roll of the dice next week, if the polls are still moving in the wrong direction... Actually stand up in parliament and say "You know what, folks: the reason you're feeling the pinch is because of OUR policies" (i.e. tell the truth).

If Cameron and Osborne figure to be out of a job by Friday anyway, and they believe in the UK passionately enough, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they make an admission along those lines. Osborne pretty much admitted today that the "example" emergency budget he put forward was a career-damaging move. Hats off to him for putting his beliefs on the EU ahead of personal ambition (and I say that as someone who doesn't vote Conservative).

They'll have to do whatever they're told by their bosses (that isn't us by the way)....they're only puppets.

 

[websaway]

I'm thinking cactus...

Tone or insult ?

 

[bonusmedia]

Some East European countries within the EU pay hourly rates that are a fraction of what we pay by law....but we have to accept their goods. This is an example of why the EU is failing.

Actually I think this is an example of what the EU is good at - by requiring those countries to give their workers the same rights, they at least limit their ability to undercut us. (As well as massively improving quality of life for millions of workers...) There is always going to be some inequality and actually if we want cheap goods we need cheap labour - at least for now...

 

[BREWSTERS]

Actually I think this is an example of what the EU is good at - by requiring those countries to give their workers the same rights, they at least limit their ability to undercut us. (As well as massively improving quality of life for millions of workers...) There is always going to be some inequality and actually if we want cheap goods we need cheap labour - at least for now...

I'm pretty certain that rights aren't implemented the same...and that they can and do undercut us across a lot of products, especially agricultural. This is why CAP exists and UK farmers are getting paid to not farm. How can that be an efficient market?

 

[bonusmedia]

House prices would potentially fall, this would of course not help the people that have opted to take out massive mortgages to buy houses that they can't afford, (lenders to advise to factor in a 3% or so interest rate rise before you borrow) but it might help those trying to get on the property ladder, so there would be winners and losers.

Also 'if' net immigration was to fall following a brexit then theoretically there would be less demand, reducing house prices meaning that people do not have to take out massive mortgages that they cannot afford.

I would certainly like to see house prices fall and become more accessible, I think we benefit from being a nation of homeowners and people should be able to reasonably aspire to owning property.

However I think the way to get there is to increase supply, not cut demand. The market is failing - largely because of scarcity of land - which is exactly when Government should step in.

Let's have a construction boom

 

[bonusmedia]

I'm pretty certain that rights aren't implemented the same...and that they can and do undercut us across a lot of products, especially agricultural. This is why CAP exists and UK farmers are getting paid to not farm. How can that be an efficient market?

They may break the rules, but at least the rules are there. Certainly they can undercut us because pay rates are lower. Would you rather pay twice the price* for British goods? If enough people do that then we could sustain all our own industries - but realistically most won't, or can't.

CAP paying farmers not to farm - part of the reason for this is to retain farming capacity - if it becomes uneconomical to run farms without subsidy then we lose farms, and we lose 'food security' - i.e. the ability to adapt to a changing world, and restart farming if needed. Another issue is managing gluts and oversupplies in the market which damage prices (butter mountains, wine lakes etc). It's certainly not an efficient market - but sometimes the most efficient market is not the best thing.

There are huge problems with the CAP and it desperately needs reform, but if we leave it will still affect us and we can't do much about it.

*not an exact figure

 

[denchomsky]

I would certainly like to see house prices fall and become more accessible, I think we benefit from being a nation of homeowners and people should be able to reasonably aspire to owning property.

However I think the way to get there is to increase supply, not cut demand. The market is failing - largely because of scarcity of land - which is exactly when Government should step in.

Let's have a construction boom

Or maybe we shouldn't be selling most new properties (in London especially) 'off plan' to foreign investors that will never live in them and don't even rent them out a lot of the time.

 

[bonusmedia]

Or maybe we shouldn't be selling most new properties (in London especially) 'off plan' to foreign investors that will never live in them and don't even rent them out a lot of the time.

Agreed. This could be resolved fairly easily with higher taxes for foreign (non-resident) ownership and for empty properties - and there are at least some moves in that direction - too little too late but maybe we'll get there

 

[denchomsky]

The EU Referendum Pits Big Business Against Working People - That’s Why I’m Voting ‘Leave’
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-mills/eu-referendum-vote-leave_b_10391536.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

More about the author (an expert?)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/author/john-mills

 

[gimpydog]

Also 'if' net immigration was to fall following a brexit then theoretically there would be less demand, reducing house prices meaning that people do not have to take out massive mortgages that they cannot afford.

House prices up 8% in the last year, 14% in London in what is an otherwise benign economy with low wage growth & next to no inflation. If that is not a bubble, I don't know what is.

Whenever the bubble bursts, it won't be the fault of 'brexit'.

 

[gimpydog]

Had the economics of brexit been given a fair hearing by both parties, then:.....
C) It would be easier to take the Leave camp's concerns about immigration and sovereignty seriously and address them with the importance they deserve, because they'd demonstrated rationalism and that deserves rationalism in return

I don't see how differences of opinion on the economics of leaving prevent the important issue of sovereignty being addressed seriously, or why the latter should be conditional on the former

Why don't you give it a try?

 

[Edwin]

Leave and Remain camps share a very strong distrust of journalists and British politicians (oh, and well-known sportspeople!) Beyond that, their views diverge...

Source: https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/743076190454448128

The right-most column explains at a glance why Remain may be losing the argument: it's hard to make a case (no matter how valid it might or might not be) when the people you're trying to reach don't trust anyone! It's a real puzzler...

 

[bonusmedia]

Leave and Remain camps share a very strong distrust of journalists and British politicians (oh, and well-known sportspeople!) Beyond that, their views diverge...

https://twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/743076190454448128

The right-most column explains at a glance why Remain may be losing the argument: it's hard to make a case (no matter how valid it might or might not be) when the people you're trying to reach don't trust anyone! It's a real puzzler...

That's fascinating - a cynicism index. I suppose it follows that if you don't trust others you're likely to want to withdraw rather than co-operate. It's also quite depressing - healthy skepticism is important but cynicism can be destructive

 

[Edwin]

That's fascinating - a cynicism index. I suppose it follows that if you don't trust others you're likely to want to withdraw rather than co-operate. It's also quite depressing - healthy skepticism is important but cynicism can be destructive

It hints at huge problems for the future of politics beyond Thursday next week, regardless of if we brexit or bremain. If the voters don't trust the politicians (on either side) on something as important as the referendum, what chance of engaging them on more mundane issues?

 

[bonusmedia]

It hints at huge problems for the future of politics beyond Thursday next week, regardless of if we brexit or bremain. If the voters don't trust the politicians (on either side) on something as important as the referendum, what chance of engaging them on more mundane issues?

Every one of us has biases and to some degree will seek sources we agree with - but there are a lot more irresponsible/unreliable sources now than ever before.

I wonder why fact checking organizations aren't given more prominence - could it be that actually many of us aren't interested in the truth unless it suits us? If so we have to admit that we're driven by emotional factors more than logic and reason - so what is driving these subconcious decisions?

If Trump can appeal to fear and hate - what does it take to appeal to optimism, ambition etc?

 

[websaway]

The EU Referendum Pits Big Business Against Working People - That’s Why I’m Voting ‘Leave’
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-mills/eu-referendum-vote-leave_b_10391536.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

More about the author (an expert?)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/author/john-mills

That's a good read. It doesn't mention the filthy money being cleaned in the London property market.

 

[Edwin]

An interesting point came up during the "economic benefits of EU membership" debate that's been going on in parliament now for several hours. (It's being broadcast live on the "BBC Parliament" channel)

Paraphrased: there could be real positive economic benefits to a Remain vote because it explicitly removes the long-standing question mark over the UK's relationship with Europe, thus reassuring companies and enabling them to come forward with investments.

BTW unlike the wider campaign, there has generally been a lot of positivity in the points raised during the debate.

 

[denchomsky]

Currently I will vote leave.

I consider myself an intelligent person, contrary to how a lot of remainers like to portray brexiters. I don't read The Sun, The Mail in fact I don't read any newspapers or subscribe to any particular news source, I read a diverse array of news form multiple sources. I read articles from both sides, watch TV debates, Question Time e.t.c. I don't have a particular problem with immigration other than I think numbers need to be controlled and detection at borders of foreign criminals and haters of western civilisation needs to be better.

I am open to persuasion to change my mind, I would say I am waiting for something, someone to convince me, but day after day all we get from the remain camp is patronising, exaggerated, condescending scaremongering and threats.
If only they would just tell the truth, be balanced and not pluck the worst case scenario from every set of figures, not be so pessimistic, maybe admit there are benefits to leaving? Of course the brexiters are guilty of the same but at least they admit there might be financial instability immediately after an exit. For some reason I dislike the brexiters less for there 'caution to the wind' approach than I do the remain camp for their obvious 'trickery' of the simple minded, vulnerable and ill informed.

People in the UK do not trust politicians any more, ever since the expenses scandal. Politicians still think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the public and continue lying, corrupting, self serving and underperforming. Are they so out of touch not to realise that all people want honesty and transparency?

With Osborne now threatening tax rises and budget cuts if we leave the EU they are really getting desperate, what next, no more free bus passes or fuel allowance for pensioners? The removal of all disabled facilities in public places?

If we leave it will partly be a revolt against the political elite, big business, hypocrisy, greed and a culture of lies. Illogical? maybe..but understandable.

 

[bonusmedia]

Currently I will vote leave.

I consider myself an intelligent person, contrary to how a lot of remainers like to portray brexiters. I don't read The Sun, The Mail in fact I don't read any newspapers or subscribe to any particular news source, I read a diverse array of news form multiple sources. I read articles from both sides, watch TV debates, Question Time e.t.c. I don't have a particular problem with immigration other than I think numbers need to be controlled and detection at borders of foreign criminals and haters of western civilisation needs to be better.

I am open to persuasion to change my mind, I would say I am waiting for something, someone to convince me, but day after day all we get from the remain camp is patronising, exaggerated, condescending scaremongering and threats.
If only they would just tell the truth, be balanced and not pluck the worst case scenario from every set of figures, not be so pessimistic, maybe admit there are benefits to leaving? Of course the brexiters are guilty of the same but at least they admit there might be financial instability immediately after an exit. For some reason I dislike the brexiters less for there 'caution to the wind' approach than I do the remain camp for their obvious 'trickery' of the simple minded, vulnerable and ill informed.

People in the UK do not trust politicians any more, ever since the expenses scandal. Politicians still think they can pull the wool over the eyes of the public and continue lying, corrupting, self serving and underperforming. Are they so out of touch not to realise that all people want honesty and transparency?

With Osborne now threatening tax rises and budget cuts if we leave the EU they are really getting desperate, what next, no more free bus passes or fuel allowance for pensioners? The removal of all disabled facilities in public places?

If we leave it will partly be a revolt against the political elite, big business, hypocrisy, greed and a culture of lies. Illogical? maybe..but understandable.

You're right, it's completely wrong to portray Brexiters as unintelligent. It's just unfortunate that some of those who shout loudest actually do say unintelligent things - on both sides.

Given that you don't trust politicians or the remain camp, who do you trust to get your information? At the worst end of the spectrum there is certainly misinformation and outright lies - but there is also the problem that it's impossible to be certain of predictions. It's quite frustrating that anyone says things with 100% certainty - but unfortunately if one side does the other has to as well - otherwise people will tend to trust those who appear more certain.

Perhaps advocating Remain based on economic risk has been a mistake - because although (from my point of view) it's a rational position, it's also trying to appeal to fear - and the Brexit campaign is doing that more effectively.

Can I suggest https://fullfact.org/ is a pretty useful independent fact-checking site - although a lot of the time the answer is 'inconclusive'/ 'needs more evidence' :-(

 

[denchomsky]

Given that you don't trust politicians or the remain camp, who do you trust to get your information? At the worst end of the spectrum there is certainly misinformation and outright lies - but there is also the problem that it's impossible to be certain of predictions. It's quite frustrating that anyone says things with 100% certainty - but unfortunately if one side does the other has to as well - otherwise people will tend to trust those who appear more certain.
(

Trust has to be earned.