EU Referendum

[bonusmedia]

It isn't a group of people it's all different kinds of people , I'm afraid your argument as most of your arguments simply doesn't hold water.
Hordes of hibs fans swarmed onto the pitch in the Scottish cup final is not a racist definition of who they were, they were people unknown, the same as my example.. The unknown is the most frightening issue of my original post. So people are rightly concerned about hoards of people flooding their towns and cities, they know not where they come from or who they are . Put the racist card back in your pocket to use in the event that you really need it. But that never has and never will be necessary with me. Sorry to disappoint but when you scrape the barrel for results you often get disappointed.

Ah - so if a Nazi describes a group of people including Jews, gays and the disabled as 'Swine', that's fine because it wasn't just Jews?

You are using derogatory language to refer to immigrants. Whether or not you think it is racist (it is), you are still using derogatory, de-humanizing language about a group of people simply because they are immigrants. Do you really think that is fair, or sensible?

I normally balk at people bringing up the Nazis but the comparison here is actually a fair one. This is exactly how the far right rises up - they unite the majority against minorities, who get blamed for everything

 

[websaway]

You said swamped initially, but yes this example still compares the fans to animals. Context is everything - it's pretty clear that the idea of hordes of immigrants swamping a town is not a positive description but a derogatory one.

It wasn't meant to be positive you imbecile it's meant to be negative as negative as it can be. We've got people, we know not who, we know not from where, coming to the UK every 3 to 4 years in numbers sufficient to create a city the size of Birmingham. Nothing to do with racism.

 

[Toonz]

Both sides of the commons are now recognising that controlled immigration is necessary. I think if the majority vote out then there is no conceivable way uncontrolled free movement will be on the table.

That's as may be, but again you've avoided answering the actual question which was a hypothetical. A what if. But never mind. Martin-s answered it directly and honestly.

 

[websaway]

Ah - so if a Nazi describes a group of people including Jews, gays and the disabled as 'Swine', that's fine because it wasn't just Jews?

You are using derogatory language to refer to immigrants. Whether or not you think it is racist (it is), you are still using derogatory, de-humanizing language about a group of people simply because they are immigrants. Do you really think that is fair, or sensible?

I normally balk at people bringing up the Nazis but the comparison here is actually a fair one. This is exactly how the far right rises up - they unite the majority against minorities, who get blamed for everything

Well you haven't agreed with anything I've said in this thread so it's not surprising you don't agree on this . We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[bonusmedia]

Well you haven't agreed with anything I've said in this thread so it's not surprising you don't agree on this . We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Well, no, I will continue to call out prejudice and discrimination. Plenty of people died fighting the Nazis, it would best to avoid a repeat

 

[BREWSTERS]

Yes, but under WTO rules this would require immediate tariffs, until such point a trade deal is negotiated. See my earlier post, quoting director from the head of the WTO, where he states this would cost £9bn a year for UK consumers.

Gee, maybe people will start buying British.

 

[bonusmedia]

Gee, maybe people will start buying British.

Except all the things we don't make any more.

We could perhaps eventually make everything for ourselves again - but I'm not sure people would be happy paying 3 or 4 times the amount, they're fairly used to cheap goods

 

[Edwin]

Some shocking economic ignorance being flaunted in the Commons debate this afternoon, with MPs suggesting that the UK's trade deficit with the rest of the EU is somehow "proof" that free trade doesn't work...

What they don't seem to grasp is that nobody is holding a gun to the heads of consumers elsewhere in the EU - if they wanted more of what the UK is selling, they'd buy it. The way to solve the trade deficit is to make more stuff that others want, at a price they're willing to pay for it! What is certain, on the other hand, is that they would buy even less from the UK if the cost of buying British was to be raised by tariff barriers.

If even (some) MPs can't grasp such a fundamental of economics as the effect of price rises on supply and demand, what hope is there for the electorate?

 

[websaway]

Well, no, I will continue to call out prejudice and discrimination. Plenty of people died fighting the Nazis, it would best to avoid a repeat

I would not trivialise the importance of the general topic you are referring to, but it has nothing to do with my views , my opinion or the way I conduct myself.

 

[websaway]

Except all the things we don't make any more.

We could perhaps eventually make everything for ourselves again - but I'm not sure people would be happy paying 3 or 4 times the amount, they're fairly used to cheap goods

Where did you get the 3 or 4 times from.
Just plucked it out of the air.

 

[websaway]

Some shocking economic ignorance being flaunted in the Commons debate this afternoon, with MPs suggesting that the UK's trade deficit with the rest of the EU is somehow "proof" that free trade doesn't work...

What they don't seem to grasp is that nobody is holding a gun to the heads of consumers elsewhere in the EU - if they wanted more of what the UK is selling, they'd buy it. The way to solve the trade deficit is to make more stuff that others want, at a price they're willing to pay for it! What is certain, on the other hand, is that they would buy even less from the UK if the cost of buying British was to be raised by tariff barriers.

If even (some) MPs can't grasp such a fundamental of economics as the effect of price rises on supply and demand, what hope is there for the electorate?

If tariffs were 10% and the pound dropped by 10% that would cancel your particular concern on export competitiveness.

 

[bonusmedia]

I would not trivialise the importance of the general topic you are referring to, but it has nothing to do with my views , my opinion or the way I conduct myself.

Great - then stop using derogatory language to refer to immigrants. Each of them is a human being

 

[websaway]

Well, no, I will continue to call out prejudice and discrimination. Plenty of people died fighting the Nazis, it would best to avoid a repeat

Ironic when you think they died to preserve our sovereignty that you care nothing for.

 

[bonusmedia]

Where did you get the 3 or 4 times from.
Just plucked it out of the air.

Well I haven't got precise figures for every single thing it's possible to make, sorry. But I can tell you that we can't produce a lot of goods anywhere near as cheaply somewhere like India - because we don't pay people $2 per day.

EDIT - bad example obviously, but the same holds true for plenty of EU goods

 

[bonusmedia]

Ironic when you think they died to preserve our sovereignty that you care nothing for.

When we went into the war our sovereignty wasn't really under threat. At one point the Nazis viewed the British Empire as likely allies. We went to war because the Nazis needed to be stopped

Who said I care nothing for sovereignty?
We're not living in the 18th century, there are trade-offs to be made.

 

[websaway]

If the treasuries worst case scenario comes to pass on Brexit, the country will go into a shallow recession. Within that scenario there will be winners losers and some who would not give a fig. In that event there are loads of ways for the new chancellor to balance the books. We would have a new PM who would bring the party together, get an emergency budget through and set sail for the future. The tories are 11/10 to win the 2020 election, so the above scenario is possible.
When the PM said we are all in this together, he didn't say there would be so many more of us in it together. And he certainly did not say that austerity would ,far from have a negative affect on the rich, make them richer.
Nothing to fear but fear itself.

 

[websaway]

When we went into the war our sovereignty wasn't really under threat. At one point the Nazis viewed the British Empire as likely allies. We went to war because the Nazis needed to be stopped

Who said I care nothing for sovereignty?
We're not living in the 18th century, there are trade-offs to be made.

Trade offs with our sovereignty ?

 

[websaway]

Well I haven't got precise figures for every single thing it's possible to make, sorry. But I can tell you that we can't produce a lot of goods anywhere near as cheaply somewhere like India - because we don't pay people $2 per day.

EDIT - bad example obviously, but the same holds true for plenty of EU goods

Try and make the example good or don't bother.

 

[bonusmedia]

If the treasuries worst case scenario comes to pass on Brexit, the country will go into a shallow recession. Within that scenario there will be winners losers and some who would not give a fig. In that event there are loads of ways for the new chancellor to balance the books. We would have a new PM who would bring the party together, get an emergency budget through and set sail for the future. The tories are 11/10 to win the 2020 election, so the above scenario is possible.
When the PM said we are all in this together, he didn't say there would be so many more of us in it together. And he certainly did not say that austerity would ,far from have a negative affect on the rich, make them richer.
Nothing to fear but fear itself.

Austerity and inequality are really serious issues, but they are largely down to Government policy, not our membership of the EU. They are certainly not going to be helped by having a new government of Tories from the far right

 

[Edwin]

If tariffs were 10% and the pound dropped by 10% that would cancel your particular concern on export competitiveness.

Who do you think pays the price for all this?

Using the figures in your scenario, anything imported from the EU would cost consumers +10% from the forex differential, and another +10% from tariffs. Inflation would sky-rocket! And that would necessitate much higher interest rates, leading to a wave of foreclosures because people couldn't keep up with their mortgage repayments any more.

Tariffs hurt twice:
- They hurt imports because home consumers have to pay more for stuff
- They hurt exports, because consumers in the markets being exported to are being asked to pay more for stuff

Since we've got a huge trade deficit, we will be hurt more than the other parties. Plus they get to make up the difference by trading within a 27-member free trade block (products that the UK used to supply may look much more attractive coming from other EU countries once the UK price for those products has been artificially raised by tariffs)