EU Referendum

[Edwin]

Some shocking economic ignorance being flaunted in the Commons debate this afternoon, with MPs suggesting that the UK's trade deficit with the rest of the EU is somehow "proof" that free trade doesn't work...

What they don't seem to grasp is that nobody is holding a gun to the heads of consumers elsewhere in the EU - if they wanted more of what the UK is selling, they'd buy it. The way to solve the trade deficit is to make more stuff that others want, at a price they're willing to pay for it! What is certain, on the other hand, is that they would buy even less from the UK if the cost of buying British was to be raised by tariff barriers.

If even (some) MPs can't grasp such a fundamental of economics as the effect of price rises on supply and demand, what hope is there for the electorate?

 

[websaway]

Well, no, I will continue to call out prejudice and discrimination. Plenty of people died fighting the Nazis, it would best to avoid a repeat

I would not trivialise the importance of the general topic you are referring to, but it has nothing to do with my views , my opinion or the way I conduct myself.

 

[websaway]

Except all the things we don't make any more.

We could perhaps eventually make everything for ourselves again - but I'm not sure people would be happy paying 3 or 4 times the amount, they're fairly used to cheap goods

Where did you get the 3 or 4 times from.
Just plucked it out of the air.

 

[websaway]

Some shocking economic ignorance being flaunted in the Commons debate this afternoon, with MPs suggesting that the UK's trade deficit with the rest of the EU is somehow "proof" that free trade doesn't work...

What they don't seem to grasp is that nobody is holding a gun to the heads of consumers elsewhere in the EU - if they wanted more of what the UK is selling, they'd buy it. The way to solve the trade deficit is to make more stuff that others want, at a price they're willing to pay for it! What is certain, on the other hand, is that they would buy even less from the UK if the cost of buying British was to be raised by tariff barriers.

If even (some) MPs can't grasp such a fundamental of economics as the effect of price rises on supply and demand, what hope is there for the electorate?

If tariffs were 10% and the pound dropped by 10% that would cancel your particular concern on export competitiveness.

 

[bonusmedia]

I would not trivialise the importance of the general topic you are referring to, but it has nothing to do with my views , my opinion or the way I conduct myself.

Great - then stop using derogatory language to refer to immigrants. Each of them is a human being

 

[websaway]

Well, no, I will continue to call out prejudice and discrimination. Plenty of people died fighting the Nazis, it would best to avoid a repeat

Ironic when you think they died to preserve our sovereignty that you care nothing for.

 

[bonusmedia]

Where did you get the 3 or 4 times from.
Just plucked it out of the air.

Well I haven't got precise figures for every single thing it's possible to make, sorry. But I can tell you that we can't produce a lot of goods anywhere near as cheaply somewhere like India - because we don't pay people $2 per day.

EDIT - bad example obviously, but the same holds true for plenty of EU goods

 

[bonusmedia]

Ironic when you think they died to preserve our sovereignty that you care nothing for.

When we went into the war our sovereignty wasn't really under threat. At one point the Nazis viewed the British Empire as likely allies. We went to war because the Nazis needed to be stopped

Who said I care nothing for sovereignty?
We're not living in the 18th century, there are trade-offs to be made.

 

[websaway]

If the treasuries worst case scenario comes to pass on Brexit, the country will go into a shallow recession. Within that scenario there will be winners losers and some who would not give a fig. In that event there are loads of ways for the new chancellor to balance the books. We would have a new PM who would bring the party together, get an emergency budget through and set sail for the future. The tories are 11/10 to win the 2020 election, so the above scenario is possible.
When the PM said we are all in this together, he didn't say there would be so many more of us in it together. And he certainly did not say that austerity would ,far from have a negative affect on the rich, make them richer.
Nothing to fear but fear itself.

 

[websaway]

When we went into the war our sovereignty wasn't really under threat. At one point the Nazis viewed the British Empire as likely allies. We went to war because the Nazis needed to be stopped

Who said I care nothing for sovereignty?
We're not living in the 18th century, there are trade-offs to be made.

Trade offs with our sovereignty ?

 

[websaway]

Well I haven't got precise figures for every single thing it's possible to make, sorry. But I can tell you that we can't produce a lot of goods anywhere near as cheaply somewhere like India - because we don't pay people $2 per day.

EDIT - bad example obviously, but the same holds true for plenty of EU goods

Try and make the example good or don't bother.

 

[bonusmedia]

If the treasuries worst case scenario comes to pass on Brexit, the country will go into a shallow recession. Within that scenario there will be winners losers and some who would not give a fig. In that event there are loads of ways for the new chancellor to balance the books. We would have a new PM who would bring the party together, get an emergency budget through and set sail for the future. The tories are 11/10 to win the 2020 election, so the above scenario is possible.
When the PM said we are all in this together, he didn't say there would be so many more of us in it together. And he certainly did not say that austerity would ,far from have a negative affect on the rich, make them richer.
Nothing to fear but fear itself.

Austerity and inequality are really serious issues, but they are largely down to Government policy, not our membership of the EU. They are certainly not going to be helped by having a new government of Tories from the far right

 

[Edwin]

If tariffs were 10% and the pound dropped by 10% that would cancel your particular concern on export competitiveness.

Who do you think pays the price for all this?

Using the figures in your scenario, anything imported from the EU would cost consumers +10% from the forex differential, and another +10% from tariffs. Inflation would sky-rocket! And that would necessitate much higher interest rates, leading to a wave of foreclosures because people couldn't keep up with their mortgage repayments any more.

Tariffs hurt twice:
- They hurt imports because home consumers have to pay more for stuff
- They hurt exports, because consumers in the markets being exported to are being asked to pay more for stuff

Since we've got a huge trade deficit, we will be hurt more than the other parties. Plus they get to make up the difference by trading within a 27-member free trade block (products that the UK used to supply may look much more attractive coming from other EU countries once the UK price for those products has been artificially raised by tariffs)

 

[bonusmedia]

Trade offs with our sovereignty ?

Yes.

For example, we trade the right to be defended by our Nato allies for their right to be defended by us. We don't make a sovereign decision on each case.

 

[Edwin]

Austerity and inequality are really serious issues, but they are largely down to Government policy, not our membership of the EU. They are certainly not going to be helped by having a new government of Tories from the far right

I wonder if that will be the Government's last roll of the dice next week, if the polls are still moving in the wrong direction... Actually stand up in parliament and say "You know what, folks: the reason you're feeling the pinch is because of OUR policies" (i.e. tell the truth).

If Cameron and Osborne figure to be out of a job by Friday anyway, and they believe in the UK passionately enough, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they make an admission along those lines. Osborne pretty much admitted today that the "example" emergency budget he put forward was a career-damaging move. Hats off to him for putting his beliefs on the EU ahead of personal ambition (and I say that as someone who doesn't vote Conservative).

 

[websaway]

Yes.

For example, we trade the right to be defended by our Nato allies for their right to be defended by us. We don't make a sovereign decision on each case.

Parliament has to agree to go to war. That is where our sovereignty lies.
Parliament has to abide by EU rules. That is where we lose our sovereignty our democracy our rights to self determination.

 

[Avano Ltd]

I have to say the tone of the posts on this forum are toxic, please remember people have an opinion and it should be respected, is this site actively moderated?

 

[newguy]

Far less well publicised was what a senior German CDU MP told Der Spiegel.

Juergen Hardt, the party's foreign policy spokesman, offered an intriguing glimpse into how Berlin may be preparing for Brexit.

If the UK votes to leave, Mr Hardt said, then the EU should gauge possible action to prevent a British exit from becoming a reality. Brussels shouldn't close the door right away.

One way or another, Germany wants to keep Britain close.

- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36526839

To be this sounds like a leave vote could very well result in more concessions and a second referendum.

 

[websaway]

I wonder if that will be the Government's last roll of the dice next week, if the polls are still moving in the wrong direction... Actually stand up in parliament and say "You know what, folks: the reason you're feeling the pinch is because of OUR policies" (i.e. tell the truth).

If Cameron and Osborne figure to be out of a job by Friday anyway, and they believe in the UK passionately enough, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they make an admission along those lines. Osborne pretty much admitted today that the "example" emergency budget he put forward was a career-damaging move. Hats off to him for putting his beliefs on the EU ahead of personal ambition (and I say that as someone who doesn't vote Conservative).

Cameron went to Brussels to seek reform, he did not get any but did not want to be the one to reside over us leaving the EU. So he promised on the basis of changes to migrant benefits and one or two other changes that he thought would win over Johnson and which did win over May,that he would throw his full weight behind a remain campaign. Both him and the Chancellor have been everything other than statesmanlike and honourable. They have completely underestimated the will of the people, and even worse than that, and what is unforgivable, he has tried to pull the wool over their eyes, instead favouring the rich to get the remain vote through. He has not lost the vote yet but any backtrack he makes will simply discredit him more.

 

[bonusmedia]

Parliament has to agree to go to war. That is where our sovereignty lies.
Parliament has to abide by EU rules. That is where we lose our sovereignty our democracy our rights to self determination.

I suppose parliament could decide not to defend a Nato ally, but we would be breaking the terms of the treaty.

If that's your definition of retaining sovereignty, we've already got it - parliament could decide to just break our EU treaties. Of course it would be the end of us as an economic, military and cultural power and we'd be the laughing stock of the world.