EU Referendum

[websaway]

If you're interested in making an informed decision, here are some good places to start trying to divine the "truth" (as far as it can be ascertained - by necessity, a lot of things are projections, plans, estimates, etc.)
http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/label/fact-check/
https://fullfact.org/europe/
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/tag/eu-referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/eu-referendum-fact-checking-the-big-claims/
https://next.ft.com/content/133da9c0-f7f7-11e5-803c-d27c7117d132

Concentrate especially on what the various sources say about the one-way nature of the Leave decision. There is strong, broad agreement that it's not something that can be reversed on a whim if, oops, things don't work out.

Yes, it can be a significant effort to dig through so much material, since both Remain and Leave put out contradictory statements on just about every topic. From my reading of hundreds of articles over the last six months, though, I'd say...

A) Both sides are telling plenty of porkies, but the Leave side's porkies are more dangerous since the downside of them being wrong is that the situation gets much worse than it is now. The situation should the vote be to stay, however, is the status quo i.e. there might just possibly be an upside to Leave, but there's a very definite possibility of a big downside. Remain, and nothing changes. So, in that respect, Remain is much less riskier than Leave.

B) Leave's arguments often read as if they've been written by somebody with handy access to a time machine, e.g. references back to the situation in 1975 when the world was such a different place that the comparison is absurd and therefore unhelpful.

C) The inaccuracies on the Remain side tend to be on the order of magnitude nature of estimates (i.e. "this or that figure can't be as precise as they claim") or of over-cautious figures ("the losses would not be as bad as...") The inaccuracies on the Leave side, on the other hand, tend to be blunter: they state many things that are categoric untruths (e.g. the fear-mongering claims about Turkey and other countries being within a few years of being granted full EU access) or have no supporting evidence of any kind, yet present them as facts.

When you really get into the claims and counter-claims, Remain have made an overwhelming/compelling/strong/weak (delete as you interpret it) case for the "danger" of brexit. Leave have made a very weak to insignificant case for the "danger" of remaining, instead choosing to focus on the (possibly/probably/almost certainly) nebulous benefits that might or might not accrue from leaving.

Imagine that a doctor is advertising a miracle cure. There's a small (but maybe real) chance it will turn you into a long-lived, hyper-healthy individual. But there's also a very solid chance it will make you very ill instead (most of the leading lights of the medical profession are on record as concurring that the latter is the more likely outcome) Would you really be willing to take that bet and inject yourself with that cure if you were healthy and disease-free?

Because that's basically what camp Leave are asking the voters of the UK to do with the future of this country: gamble a situation that on the whole works reasonably well, albeit with the inefficiencies and unfairnesses that are inherent in any massive bureaucratic system, and stake everything on a big unknown.

Here's the thing: you absolutely don't have to take my word on any of the above. Just head off to the links I listed above, and form your own opinions!

No Edwin lets not imagine we are ill because the UK is not ill. Lets imagine we are in prison or in an abusive marriage ( institutionalised ) and all the analysis of being outside is financial doom and gloom, would we risk escaping and being free of an ever ending lack of freedom, simply for a roof over ones head, or 3 meals a day. We are not ill we are trapped and we need to have the courage to break free.

 

[websaway]

Another aid for anyone still trying to make up their mind is this incredibly comprehensive compilation of which figures, bodies, government entities and suchlike have endorsed a "remain" or "leave" position. You can bet that a document on such a hot topic will be vigorously edited by both "sides" to the debate (indeed, the page shows a history of very frequent revisions) so it should be nominally "neutral".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endor...om_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016

I think the two lists speak for themselves, once you take the time to study them in detail!

Edwin I have never known you to be right, why should you be now. All your opinions are based on other peoples analysis, and all that information is formed out of self interest with scant regard for the things people hold dear.

 

[Brassneck]

All beginning to look like a UKIP party rally on here - surprising for so-called business people. It's 2016 not 1939 - the world has changed and Britain isn't owed anything. I remember Britain in the 1970s when the population was declining, London was a place nobody wanted to live. I certainly don't want us to go back to the Dark Ages.

The EU is not perfect, but as far as I am concerned te advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. It's not all about immigration although there are plenty of studies to show that migrants from the EU are a net contributor to the economy as they are generally extremely well educated and hard working.

Non-EU migration, which we can potentially do more about, is still within our control and always will be.

 

[websaway]

All beginning to look like a UKIP party rally on here - surprising for so-called business people. It's 2016 not 1939 - the world has changed and Britain isn't owed anything. I remember Britain in the 1970s when the population was declining, London was a place nobody wanted to live. I certainly don't want us to go back to the Dark Ages.

The EU is not perfect, but as far as I am concerned te advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. It's not all about immigration although there are plenty of studies to show that migrants from the EU are a net contributor to the economy as they are generally extremely well educated and hard working.

Non-EU migration, which we can potentially do more about, is still within our control and always will be.

The EU is not perfect. The EU is currently a gravy train for failed politicians but is fast becoming a soviet block type of organisation. I believe that and because of the future objectives of the organisation and because of it's ever increasing membership which results in us having continuing diluted clout, nothing would convince me to vote remain.

 

[MikeJDS]

On a side note:
I'll admit I'd never heard of Purdah until now. (strange definition).

But apparently it cuts in on Friday until the referendum vote.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-is-purdah-brexit-eu-referendum-a7047806.html

This should have been in place from the very start.

 

[martin-s]

Remember: if the vote is to "stay", nothing at all changes. Nothing needs to be negotiated, enacted, decided. Life just continues.

I don't think you could be more wrong Edwin. There's a whole raft of changes that have been shelved while the UK is convinced to stay. The EU is working towards a superstate and nothing is going to stop that except leaving.

 

[martin-s]

Also, for the record, my father in law was talking to his postie, who'd been conducting a doorstep survey with the houses on his round. He thinks the outers MASSIVELY outweigh the inners.

People instinctively know that the current EU setup is a bad deal. Unfair, expensive, and uncontrollable.

Everything will be fine if we leave. There will be bumps in the road, but the disaster scenarios presented by project fear are far fetched to say the least.

And for the record, if Dave had won real concessions from the EU, if they suddenly had a realisation that it isn't just the UK with these concerns, that there is widespread concern across European countries that the EU is headed in the wrong direction, I could have been persuaded to stay in.

The handbrake on immigration is a total joke. The concessions were near zero. I was kidding myself that it was possible.

By refusing to recognise that, the EU parliament has shown the values they hold, the arrogance and superiority - and they are not at all something I want for us.

A vote out is the impact moment that we need to get things back on track - for both the UK and EU.

 

[spiderspider]

On a side note:
I'll admit I'd never heard of Purdah until now. (strange definition).

But apparently it cuts in on Friday until the referendum vote.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-is-purdah-brexit-eu-referendum-a7047806.html

This should have been in place from the very start.

Knew about the process, didn't know the definition.

Agree with this bit (was wondering why it was one a day this week):

What difference will I notice?

For a start there will be an end to the dire warnings of economic, military and social collapse if we pull out of the EU from Government bodies. That’s why we have had so many of them recently – because it will have to stop after Friday.

 

[MikeJDS]

The EU isn't just bad for the UK, it's bad for the whole of Europe.
It's pretty obvious it's a ticking time bomb, set to fail whether we vote IN or OUT (the economics simply don't add up).
Not going to be easy, but a lot less messy doing it this way and getting a head start, rather then waiting for the inevitable to eventually happen.

You can bet there will be plenty of people in Western Europe hoping the UK leads the way by voting to leave (and for the right reasons).
A lot of them don't want to have their Sovereignty & Democracy lost either.
+ I love Europe for it's diversity & mix of cultures, that deserves a lot more respect too.

 

[RobM]

The irony is I left the UK to move to a non-EU country (that was one of the factors for me). Years later they joined the EU *doh*. Since then cost of living has risen massively, the island has become overpopulated, wages haven't gone up nearly enough compared to goods and services, and the EU dictates what we can and can't do. Just saying

 

[ian]

The irony is I left the UK to move to a non-EU country (that was one of the factors for me). Years later they joined the EU *doh*. Since then cost of living has risen massively, the island has become overpopulated, wages haven't gone up nearly enough compared to goods and services, and the EU dictates what we can and can't do. Just saying

So where are you going to move to then from Malta?

 

[MikeJDS]

Perhaps he may consider coming back 'home' after next month, if all goes well??

 

[RobM]

Actually I would've moved years ago but got too entrenched in family life here. I had my eye on Australia - went there and loved it. Unfortunately couldn't get the family to agree. Coincidence that it's non-eu? Regarding the vote though, and Europe in general, I see it as bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted. I can't see (and the media won't explain) the benefits to either - just that if UK stays in they'll be skint and have world war 3 but if they leave they'll be skint and have world war 3

 

[RobM]

Also don't forget that we changed our currency here to the Euro - something the UK never did. I don't know how that would affect any decisions but I can imagine it'd be harder to leave if your currency had changed.

 

[ian]

Imagine the headlines, "Britain becomes tax haven" - all those domainers with Cayman Island accounts can return home

 

[gimpydog]

Possibly more illusion of democracy. Plenty of laws, wars and everything in between happen in our name that are far removed from the will of the people. IN or OUT things are largely out of our control.

I think, in broad terms, democracy does work in the UK & we get the government the country wants.

With that in mind, you might want to stick a few quid on Donald Trump to win in the US. I can't believe he's currently 9/4 with Skybet.

 

[gimpydog]

all those domainers with Cayman Island accounts can return home

They never left

 

[AssetDomains]

Debate on BBC one now might be worth a watch

 

[MikeJDS]

MMM - What did you think of it? - Haha
Right old mess wasn't it.

 

[AssetDomains]

Yes wasn't very organised at all hasn't prompted me either way I'll have to do some real research next week I do think the no vote has a massive lead the poles aren't picking up