EU Referendum

[Toonz]

I'm torn on how to vote in this referendum.

Instinctively I've always been pro-EU and scoffed at the tabloid scare stories of bendy bananas and 'red tape' and all that stuff. If I'm being honest, I'd have to admit that this is probably because I'm centre-left and so for me, EU legislation has seemed more benevolent than it perhaps might have if you happen to be on the right of the political spectrum. I like the greater emphasis the EU has traditionally placed on, for example, workers rights, stringent health and safety standards and especially rigorous food standards.

In a nutshell, I think that it has tended to be more socialist (or at least more social democratic) than Britain. My sense is that, left to our own devices, Britain as a mostly conservative nation would water down much of this and end up closer to the USA, with more power shifted to corporations and bosses and less power with the worker and consumer.

Having said all that, I have to confess over recent years I've become deeply unhappy with the failures of the EU, in particular, their handling of the migrant crisis and the bullyboy tactics used on Greece and Italy. I'm also under no illusions about the sheer scale of waste and how technocratic it's become.

Right now I'm probably siding slightly more with remain albeit reluctantly. But I can easily change my mind in the course of the day, and change it back again by teatime! Sometimes I think this decision should be left to people more informed than me.

 

[BeachLife]

Is that the same S&P who, in 2008, were giving a 'AAA' rating to US mortgage backed securities because they had a conflict of interests?

Yes, that's the one, what of it? They are widely used internationally, that AAA rating on the mortgage backed securities enabled that pile of crap to be sold. Similarly, if they decide to downgrade the UK's AAA it will cost us all.

Guardian readers & BBC viewers might be surprised to learn that we didn't go to war with the 'Nazis'. We liberated Europe from the Germans and much of the credit for that lies with Russia.

I'm not sure what this is about - are you criticising me quoting the Guardian in regard to history, or the 300 British and European Historians they quoted?


One comment to the leavers, I have yet to read any concrete statement of how leaving will improve our country? One thing is for sure though, the improvements that you foresee will come at a very real economic cost to the UK.

 

[newguy]

I'm torn on how to vote in this referendum.

Instinctively I've always been pro-EU and scoffed at the tabloid scare stories of bendy bananas and 'red tape' and all that stuff. If I'm being honest, I'd have to admit that this is probably because I'm centre-left and so for me, EU legislation has seemed more benevolent than it perhaps might have if you happen to be on the right of the political spectrum. I like the greater emphasis the EU has traditionally placed on, for example, workers rights, stringent health and safety standards and especially rigorous food standards.

In a nutshell, I think that it has tended to be more socialist (or at least more social democratic) than Britain. My sense is that, left to our own devices, Britain as a mostly conservative nation would water down much of this and end up closer to the USA, with more power shifted to corporations and bosses and less power with the worker and consumer.

Having said all that, I have to confess over recent years I've become deeply unhappy with the failures of the EU, in particular, their handling of the migrant crisis and the bullyboy tactics used on Greece and Italy. I'm also under no illusions about the sheer scale of waste and how technocratic it's become.

Right now I'm probably siding slightly more with remain albeit reluctantly. But I can easily change my mind in the course of the day, and change it back again by teatime! Sometimes I think this decision should be left to people more informed than me.

This is far too considered and even handed for this thread. Get out now!

 

[newguy]

-

 

[gimpydog]

Yes, that's the one, what of it?

You said...

Standard and Poor (who are not in anyone's pocket)

I am suggesting that that is not true.

Similarly, if they decide to downgrade the UK's AAA it will cost us all.

Maybe, but probably not. The other two large credit-rating agencies have already downgraded us &, as far as I know, the sky has not fallen in.
Moody's credit rating for the United Kingdom was last set at Aa1 with stable outlook. Fitch's credit rating for the United Kingdom was last reported at AA+ with stable outlook

Interestingly, S&P downgraded the US from 'AAA' to 'AA+' on 5th August 2011. Since then, the DJI has risen about 58%.

I'm not sure what this is about

I was pointing out the correlation between these two statements...

my knowledge of history is very poor

"Europe made us".

Imho, neither the BBC nor the Guardian can be considered to be impartial in this matter & they have a tendency to airbrush history.

 

[gimpydog]

Gotta love Google....

But leaving the UK for tax reasons is just fine & dandy!

 

[spiderspider]

given that the UK's credit rating will fall

Will it? 100% certain on that?


We stay, ours may (note how I said may, not will) be downgraded, but given the Greece, Italian, Spanish and Portugal monetary issues, Eurozone is heading for another downgrade anyway.

One comment to the leavers, I have yet to read any concrete statement of how leaving will improve our country?

Lets start with the fisherman, who will no longer be restricted by quotas form Europe, and we can kick the Spanish out our territorial waters, meaning a British industry that has virtually been destroyed by Europe, can be rebuilt.

Control over immigration. Not in the racist way, but currently, if 20,000 (insert European country) people have passports (or travel docs) they can come to the UK and work. No questions asked. Invited or not, skilled or not. Just a note on this ----- Its been allowed for quite some time, yet we still have skills gaps according to reports, so stopping it won't really have any impact.

Sovereign control, of British rule. Currently, if we want to deport someone for not being allowed here, they can go as far as the European courts, who can over ride the British ones. Lets take back control there. But that's not all, the European courts are frequently over riding our own courts, and this shouldn't be allowed.

We wouldn't have MEPs, as there would be no need for them.

We would have more control over imports, tenders etc, meaning that more can be given to British companies, rather than British having having to compete with EU for British projects (the status quo may well continue, but at least if we leave the EU, we'll have the options, which we currently don't).

And thats just off my head, Sure there are loads more if I take 10 mins and think about them.

 

[gimpydog]

Lets start with the fisherman, who will no longer be restricted by quotas form Europe, and we can kick the Spanish out our territorial waters, meaning a British industry that has virtually been destroyed by Europe, can be rebuilt.

I was genuinely surprised to learn that 70% of EU fishing grounds are in UK waters, but UK fishermen get only 14% of the quota.

Why don't the SNP back the Scottish fleet?

 

[websaway]

I think the don't knows should just ask themselves one question. Do they mind being a state in a Brussels controlled super state. A similar institution to the former soviet block, though slightly more democratic. That's the worst case scenario and if they do not mind that, then it's a stay in. If they want to live in a country with it's own autonomy governed by a mandate by it's people, then it's an out. Simple as that.

 

[Toonz]

I think the don't knows should just ask themselves one question. Do they mind being a state in a Brussels controlled super state. A similar institution to the former soviet block, though slightly more democratic. That's the worst case scenario and if they do not mind that, then it's a stay in. If they want to live in a country with it's own autonomy governed by a mandate by it's people, then it's an out. Simple as that.

Haha, I'm lost as to why they didn't hire you to frame the wording on our referendum forms

 

[Toonz]

I think almost everyone accepts that EU reform is needed. Speaking as a sceptical remainer, I have a question to the more certain remainers: do you really believe that (to quote the campaign group of the same name) "another Europe is possible"? And if so, how on earth can the UK ever hope to achieve meaningful reform when the majority of other member states don't agree with us?

My fear is that I'm fooling myself about our capacity to reform the EU in a more democratic direction - I just don't see how that's possible without ever closer political and fiscal union, which of course is something the UK doesn't want. I'm starting to think that the idea of staying in and seeking reform is doomed. (Told you I'd change my mind by teatime, folks)

 

[MikeJDS]

Why don't the SNP back the Scottish fleet?

Because it's not in their political interests to do so.
The SNP's ultimate aim is to try and get a 2nd Scottish referendum.

They have placed their hopes on a Leave Vote result (even though they are officially in the Remain camp) in the EU referendum with the hope most of Scotland will have voted remain.
Then they can claim rights to a 2nd Scottish Referendum on the basis the vote to leave the EU went against the will of the Scottish people.
(not that I'm convinced it will).

It's all a bit *ucked up! - But that's politics for you.

 

[Edwin]

One thing's clear from this thread (assuming it's broadly representative of the wider UK): regardless of the outcome on referendum day, there are going to be a LOT of disgruntled people angry at not having got "their" way! It will be interesting to see how that feeds back into politics in the next 5-10 years i.e. how that plays at the ballot box.

 

[Edwin]

BTW, the deadline to register to vote in the referendum is 7 June 2016.
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum

(After that, you can have all the opinions you like, but you'll have no way of influencing the result!)

 

[MikeJDS]

One thing's clear from this thread (assuming it's broadly representative of the wider UK): regardless of the outcome on referendum day, there are going to be a LOT of disgruntled people angry at not having got "their" way! It will be interesting to see how that feeds back into politics in the next 5-10 years i.e. how that plays at the ballot box.

It's been hugely divisive, which isn't always such a bad thing in Politics IMO.
Certainly don't ever want 3 parties virtually the same as we have had in the recent past.
As long as we don't shoot off too far in one direction, we will be just fine.

My main problem with this referendum is that very little work is being achieved by the Government to do anything but fight their corner.
The sooner it is over, the better.

 

[gimpydog]

It's all a bit *ucked up! - But that's politics for you.

Yes - especially as their policy in the first referendum was to be independent of the UK, but not independent of the EU

 

[martin-s]

I think almost everyone accepts that EU reform is needed.

That'd be a great vote topic. "Do you feel more EU reform is needed?"

Because you can be damned sure, if we vote remain, there's no guarantee that even the pathetic bits "won" By Dave will be fully implemented. And there sure as hell won't be much else on the table!

 

[websaway]

This referendum is about immigration not economics. Any fool knows that
economies rise and fall on all sorts of internal and external factors.
There is no cure for boom and bust, that's the way it pans out. So in
or out, the economy might take a hit but, it might not. But immigration
is not about the guessing game. We know that if we remain in the EU we
cannot control the number of foreign people who enter our country.
Some say we cannot control our borders even if we leave the EU but
my take on that is that we can then only blame ourselves.
There is a majority of people in this country who want to retain our
British values and culture and for those it's essential to leave the EU
and regain our own ability to govern our immigration policy.
If we don't leave then the future for white Britain looks bleak,
the next generation will be a minority.

 

[AlistairM]

Seen a number of Vote Leave signs up in windows and Vote Leave signs on peoples front lawns. Haven't noticed any for remain yet. Hopefully the majority of remainers aren't bothered enough to go and vote.

 

[Brassneck]

If we don't leave then the future for white Britain looks bleak,
the next generation will be a minority.

I don't like your comment, but anyway I think you will find that most people of European background are actually white. Being in the EU or otherwise has nothing to do with immigration from outside of Europe.