EU Referendum

[Edwin]

Remember: if the vote is to "stay", nothing at all changes. Nothing needs to be negotiated, enacted, decided. Life just continues.

That may be good or bad (depending on your appetite for change) but it's definitely "less risky" than the unknown of "leave".

 

[MikeJDS]

Just from a domaining point of view - isn't it in the interests of .uk portfolio holders that Scotland stays in the UK - and isn't that a lot less likely after Brexit?

I think the SNP have simply made up this assumption that Scottish voters are more inclined to vote Remain.
I'm not convinced they would probably vote much different to any other part of the UK as a whole. (whichever way that may be).
Why would they?

 

[RobM]

I obviously lost my vote for having lived outside of the UK for too long. However if I could vote it would be nice to hear the benefits of both staying and leaving as opposed to the bad things that *could* happen if staying or leaving. I don't know if it's just the media slant but all I seem to see are (scare-tactic) stories about what *could* happen from both sides.

 

[MikeJDS]

Remember: if the vote is to "stay", nothing at all changes. Nothing needs to be negotiated, enacted, decided. Life just continues.

That's just silly..
Imagine if someone said that in 1975 regarding the ECC referendum.
They couldn't have been further away from the truth.
The same applies now.
There is no 'Status quo' either way.

 

[AlistairM]

I think we're having this referendum because people want change, they don't want things to stay as they are. Personally I only see it continuing to get worse if we stay in. And I don't really think people need all these "facts and figures" thrown at them to help them make their minds up, or scare them to be more precise, they should be able to see what's going on for themselves, and everybody should really know that facts and figures will be manipulated just to suit the argument anyway, on either side.

If people believe the EU can be reformed then just look at what David Cameron got for his supposed efforts, sweet fa. They aren't interested in reform, they're just interested in having control, simple as that.

Ask yourselves this, how do countries like Australia survive if the EU is the be all and end all? But this isn't Australia, this is Great Britain (UK actualy but the points the same). I'm pretty certain we'll do just fine thank you very much.

Nope, you can throw all the risks of leaving you want at me, the EU offers no benefits whatsoever as far as I'm concerned, just the reverse. It's out for me and always will be.

 

[Edwin]

That's just silly..
Imagine if someone said that in 1975 regarding the ECC referendum.
They couldn't have been further away from the truth.
The same applies now.
There is no 'Status quo' either way.

Sorry, I don't understand your logic.

The UK is already in the EU, so all the necessary treaties, trade deals, freedom of movement arrangements etc. that EU membership entails are already in place.

If the vote is to "stay" then there's not going to be anything to renegotiate or change. The UK keeps all the same arrangements it already has. It benefits from the same trade deals, is affected by the same pan-European laws, benefits from/suffers from the same freedom of movement rules, and so on, and so on. Literally nothing is different.

(That doesn't mean that the UK government is forced to stop pushing the EU to make concessions that help Britain's national interests, but that's something they do all the time as a matter of course, as does every other country - the process itself won't be affected by a "stay" vote)

 

[Edwin]

Stay can be summed up as: "Do nothing."

Leave can be summed up as: "Do something drastic. It might have a positive effect. It's quite likely to have a negative effect, according to a very wide range of experts (who might yet be wrong, however)."

NOTE: the huge amounts of hot air in the media on both sides of the debate obscure the simplicity of the above, but that's what the referendum actually boils down to.

 

[Edwin]

Simply in hope that the country can regain some control of its borders and laws.

Border control is a two-way street. If you want to restrict who can come to the UK, then the flip-side is you're also restricting how British citizens can cross other borders.

For example, if you remove the right for French citizens to be able to travel/settle automatically in the UK, you can be absolutely cast-iron certain that the French will pull the same rights for British citizens.

So you can concoct a "fortress Britain" scenario with very tightly controlled borders, but then you're kissing goodbye to any opportunity for British citizens to take advantage of the rest of Europe.

 

[spiderspider]

then there's not going to be anything to renegotiate or change.

WooHoo!!!! Then all the bureaucrats can be fired, Brussels closed down, and everyone lives in peace and harmony. LOL

I get the impression Edwin that you don't like change, or anything changing.

 

[spiderspider]

you can be absolutely cast-iron certain that the French will pull the same rights for British citizens

Whats the current situation? Are there French border agents actively working at Dover and Newhaven? No......

Are there British border agents actively working at Calais? Yes.
Are the British screening most lorries in France, before they get on a ferry? Yes.

Are the French doing that here? No.

Is that agreement anything to do with the EU? No.

It was independently negotiated between France and the UK.

 

[Edwin]

I get the impression Edwin that you don't like change, or anything changing.

That's too simplistic.

I don't like dramatic change. Brexit would definitely qualify as dramatic.

Again, there's no guarantee that Brexit will mean Britain ends up worse off (we won't know for certain that is the case until it happens.) But the odds are very high that it will.

It's a highly emotive issue, so it's very tempting to ignore the evidence in favour of "gut instinct", but as I've said earlier in this thread if you actually "do the homework" on the issue by researching it thoroughly, then it's clear there's a very strong preponderance of expert opinion to suggest that Brexit carries more chance of risk and negative impact than of reward.

 

[MikeJDS]

Sorry, I don't understand your logic.

The UK is already in the EU, so all the necessary treaties, trade deals, freedom of movement arrangements etc. that EU membership entails are already in place.

If the vote is to "stay" then there's not going to be anything to renegotiate or change. The UK keeps all the same arrangements it already has. It benefits from the same trade deals, is affected by the same pan-European laws, benefits from/suffers from the same freedom of movement rules, and so on, and so on. Literally nothing is different.

(That doesn't mean that the UK government is forced to stop pushing the EU to make concessions that help Britain's national interests, but that's something they do all the time as a matter of course, as does every other country - the process itself won't be affected by a "stay" vote)

By default there should be no EU.
The EU is the result of the ECC trade deal, that's gone terribly bad by changing into something completely different to what everyone voted for in the 1975 referendum.
Yes, the trade deals the good bit - Everything else frankly stinks in the face of democracy IMO.

The same applies now to this EU referendum. (with TTIP & further integration round the corner).
If you seriously think that by staying in that everything is going to the stay exactly the same you couldn't be more wrong.
The most important factor being that you won't probably ever get a real say again to how this country does things ever again.

 

[bonusmedia]

Ask yourselves this, how do countries like Australia survive if the EU is the be all and end all? But this isn't Australia, this is Great Britain (UK actualy but the points the same). I'm pretty certain we'll do just fine thank you very much.

Nope, you can throw all the risks of leaving you want at me, the EU offers no benefits whatsoever as far as I'm concerned, just the reverse. It's out for me and always will be.

Australia has massive natural resources, they've grown rich selling them to China and their economy is massively dependent on China. Apples and Oranges.

If you really think the EU has no benefits at all then you're being deliberately blind. Even Boris and Nigel wouldn't try arguing that.

 

[bonusmedia]

WooHoo!!!! Then all the bureaucrats can be fired, Brussels closed down, and everyone lives in peace and harmony. LOL

I get the impression Edwin that you don't like change, or anything changing.

No-one likes bureaucracy but most accept it as a necessary evil. If we want nice things we need managers.

You forget that a large part of the reason that Europe has pursued integration is to maintain peace and harmony. The last time the nationalists took power there was a World War.

 

[bonusmedia]

I'd rather take a bit more time when travelling abroad than put up with the tidal wave of filth that has been allowed to inhabit these shores unchecked!

Sorry for invoking Godwin's law but don't you think that sounds a tiny bit Nazi? What do you mean by tidal wave of filth? Is there a specific nationality or race you don't like - for example, Nigel Farage's German wife?

 

[AlistairM]

I'd rather take a bit more time when travelling abroad than put up with the tidal wave of filth that has been allowed to inhabit these shores unchecked!

I somewhat agree to this point.

 

[bonusmedia]

I somewhat agree to this point.

Foreign nationals are 13% of the population and 13% of the prison population.
The perception of both immigration and crime is often completely at odds with the reality.

 

[Edwin]

Serious question: if you're in favour of leave, do you think the huge number of experts from a wide range of disciplines who have come forward with arguments for remaining are somehow all conspiring together to pull the wool over people's eyes?

If not, how do you reconcile the fact that most evidence being put forward supports remain being the better option, and your own leave view?

In other words, is your position formed logically or instinctively?

 

[AlistairM]

Foreign nationals are 13% of the population and 13% of the prison population.
The perception of both immigration and crime is often completely at odds with the reality.

I guess you're answering to what I originally wrote? Unfortunately that was meant to be tongue in cheek and was written earlier but I didn't post it. I didn't realise it was saved as a draft and posted it by mistake when I went to quote your reply from earlier which is why it's now edited as i couldn't figure out how to delete it. Anyway.

Australia has massive natural resources, they've grown rich selling them to China and their economy is massively dependent on China. Apples and Oranges.

Exactly. Because they aren't restricted in any way they've been able to do what's best for them.

If you really think the EU has no benefits at all then you're being deliberately blind. Even Boris and Nigel wouldn't try arguing that.

No, I don't see any benefits that would make we want to vote remain.

 

[newguy]

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