EU Referendum

[AssetDomains]

no to staying in to clarify

 

[MikeJDS]

I thought the polls were showing remain as leading.

It's hard for people to make any judgement from politicians as not many are very open and honest.
So, yes I'd definately recommend anyone to do their own research if still undecided.

I actually don't mind Alan Johnson. He's probably one of the best campaigners the remainers have got.
You can tell he is somebody who is a decent guy & does truely believe in most of what he says.
Just I don't agree with most it.

 

[AssetDomains]

Yep the opinion poles are showing slight advantage to remain but people you ask in everyday life seem to want out similar to the pole here. I'm guessing a lot of the people who want to leave aren't saying so to pollsters because they don't want to seem racist. when you have people like the girl going on about immigrants taking all the council houses its easy to see why you leavers wouldn't want to be lumped in with some of the more rabid elements of the leave side

 

[AlistairM]

An hour, or less than that really isn't much time to have a decent debate and let each side get their points across properly, especially when trying to cram in a fair few questions.

It was a bit of a mess and neither side came across more convincing than the other, although I don't think the girl shouting about the reason why students come here to study is because the UK is better than the EU, did the leave side any favours.

I'd like to have known where that girls family originally came from on the remain side who was having a tit for tat about immigration and stated her family were originally immigrants. Could have made the point that if they were from outside the EU they probably wouldn't get let in now because we have to make from for EU citizens.

 

[MikeJDS]

Yep the opinion poles are showing slight advantage to remain but people you ask in everyday life seem to want out similar to the pole here. I'm guessing a lot of the people who want to leave aren't saying so to pollsters because they don't want to seem racist. when you have people like the girl going on about immigrants taking all the council houses its easy to see why you leavers wouldn't want to be lumped in with some of the more rabid elements of the leave side

People like that certainly don't help.
It's worth noting, (if you can think back) It's probably only been around 18 months of so, since you were even 'allowed' to mention the word immigration in a debate without getting shot down Instantly.
The UK seems to have come a small step in the right direction since then and actually start to allow people to express there opinion.
So, come what may a small victory for Free Speech & perhaps the start of the end of crazy Political Correctness.

 

[Edwin]

This was an interesting article, and a lot of the comments were worth a read too (though interspersed with the usual vitriol you find "below the line" on the Guardian)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/26/eu-debate-enlightenment-historians

NOTE: the comments are best read sorted into "oldest" first, and "expanded" display. If you've not used the Guardian website below, you can adjust that using the two little pull-down menus just above the comments themselves.

 

[RobM]

Let's be honest. You've all thought about it. You're not the majority. Sadly the majority are at home all day on benefits watching Jeremy Kyle. They are more important than you. The less literate. the more lazy, the less educated..... this vote is for them. None of you all here fall into this category. Don't pretend to yourself that you have a say.

 

[AssetDomains]

Question time having a decent debate about this tonight worth a watch on iplayer if you haven't been watching

 

[BeachLife]

Last year the UK had the worlds second highest current account gap, at around £100bn I believe. That means money is flowing out of the country.

Standard and Poor (who are not in anyone's pocket) warned that an exit would deter foreign investment and capital inflows. This would increase the current account gap and force the pound downward. This in turn could mean losing the pounds reserve status.

Basically financial markets hate uncertainty and an exit would deliver this in a huge amount, all focused on the UK. Why on earth would anyone ask for that?

As for trade agreements, the chief of the WTO (again not in anyone's pocket) warned an exit would force the UK to renegotiate "pretty much all" it's trade with the rest of the world, not just the EU. More uncertainty.

 

[lazarus]

Personally I think in the long term staying in is riskier than coming out. Economically the EU is a sinking ship, better to jump ship now before its too late.

 

[MikeJDS]

Last year the UK had the worlds second highest current account gap, at around £100bn I believe. That means money is flowing out of the country.

.......... Whilst being in the EU.

 

[BeachLife]

.......... Whilst being in the EU.

Are you saying that leaving the EU will reduce this deficit? Will it encourage flows of money into the country, given that the UK's credit rating will fall, and uncertainty of the future will increase?

 

[MikeJDS]

No I was simply finishing of your statement, as you failed to highlight an important factor, in your doom & gloom figures from last year.

Carry on..............

 

[MikeJDS]

It seems for the 'Remainers' here that their decision seems to be based more on the fear of leaving, rather than any positives from being in the EU.
Would that be fair?

 

[BeachLife]

It seems for the 'Remainers' here that their decision seems to be based more on the fear of leaving, rather than any positives from being in the EU.
Would that be fair?

As the Guardian put it "If someone is about to jump off a cliff, and is claiming to be interested in the facts before deciding whether to do so, it’s probably quite sensible to explain the drastic consequences of jumping. Is that a “project fear”?"

I try to look at history for facts.
Everything else to me is either just a viewpoint or speculation.

I thought you made a good point earlier regarding democracy, but my knowledge of history is very poor so had a quick scout around. It seems 300 UK and European Historians published the following open letter:

"As historians of Britain and of Europe, we believe that Britain has had in the past, and will have in the future, an irreplaceable role to play in Europe. On 23 June, we face a choice: to cast ourselves adrift, condemning ourselves to irrelevance and Europe to division and weakness; or to reaffirm our commitment to the EU and stiffen the cohesion of our continent in a dangerous world."

Or, as one of them put it "Europe made us".

The main problem with the debate and referendum is that it really isn't about the facts, the remain camp simply wins there. Instead it is an emotive issue, regarding sovereignty and control, at which point all rational thinking disappears.

 

[MikeJDS]

As the Guardian put it "If someone is about to jump off a cliff, and is claiming to be interested in the facts before deciding whether to do so, it’s probably quite sensible to explain the drastic consequences of jumping. Is that a “project fear”?"



I thought you made a good point earlier regarding democracy, but my knowledge of history is very poor so had a quick scout around. It seems 300 UK and European Historians published the following open letter:

"As historians of Britain and of Europe, we believe that Britain has had in the past, and will have in the future, an irreplaceable role to play in Europe. On 23 June, we face a choice: to cast ourselves adrift, condemning ourselves to irrelevance and Europe to division and weakness; or to reaffirm our commitment to the EU and stiffen the cohesion of our continent in a dangerous world."

Or, as one of them put it "Europe made us".

The main problem with the debate and referendum is that it really isn't about the facts, the remain camp simply wins there. Instead it is an emotive issue, regarding sovereignty and control, at which point all rational thinking disappears.

"Jumping off a cliff!" (from the guardian - really?).
Yes, that's a phrase that would certainly drive fear in some people.
Thanks for clarifying.

 

[AlistairM]

"As historians of Britain and of Europe, we believe that Britain has had in the past, and will have in the future, an irreplaceable role to play in Europe. On 23 June, we face a choice: to cast ourselves adrift, condemning ourselves to irrelevance and Europe to division and weakness; or to reaffirm our commitment to the EU and stiffen the cohesion of our continent in a dangerous world."

Or, as one of them put it "Europe made us".

Condemning ourselves to irrelevance? Were we irrelevant before we joined the EU? I don't think so. The way things are headed though Britain will be irrelevant if we stay in the EU, we'll just be a region in the EU superstate, dominated by Germany.

Europe may have "made us" when the time was right to join, but times change, and the current EU and the way in which it is heading isn't what people voted for back then and it's the reason why we're having this referendum now, because it's not what people want. The biggest reason most people who will vote to remain will do so because they think it's better the Devil you know, not because they want to be in the EU.

 

[martin-s]

There is an important difference between "risk" and "fact" which is being completely missed here. There are risks on both sides. Some will happen to a greater or lesser extent, and some won't happen at all.

It seems that the only benefits of remain are to avoid the potential risks! Well bugger that. The risks of staying in are just as visible if you're willing to see them.

A different, less intrusive Europe would be fine by me. But the Europe we're in at the moment is getting gradually more and more instrusive, and will continue to do so.

The EMU block require that - because a single currency requires political and financial alignment, cooperation, and central control.

 

[gimpydog]

Standard and Poor (who are not in anyone's pocket)

Is that the same S&P who, in 2008, were giving a 'AAA' rating to US mortgage backed securities because they had a conflict of interests?
Justice Department and State Partners Secure $1.375 Billion Settlement with S&P for Defrauding Investors in the Lead Up to the Financial Crisis

my knowledge of history is very poor

"Europe made us".

Guardian readers & BBC viewers might be surprised to learn that we didn't go to war with the 'Nazis'. We liberated Europe from the Germans and much of the credit for that lies with Russia.

 

[websaway]

A woman in an abusive marriage was warned against leaving, she would not have a roof over her head, all her meals and enough money to buy clothes and run a car. The fear caused her to stay for years suffering physical and emotional abuse in return for the security her marriage brought. Finally one day she plucked up the courage to leave and two weeks later she met and married a rich man who treated her well. The moral of this story is that we become institutionalised because of fear of leaving.