EU Referendum

[websaway]

The EU budget increases every year, despite UK opposition. And that's before you bring the migration crisis into play.

But you're just continuing to play the same single card all the time.

Money, money, money.

Are you an ABBA fan?

Yes he will not get involved with the questions that are equally pertinent to the argument. He chose not to come back on The Bill Cash article in the DM yesterday. Blissful ignorance.

 

[martin-s]

I reply to the bits that seem to be fact-based yet incorrect with sources or data that debunk those facts

As for anything that smacks of a personal attack, well it has no place in this thread (even Abba can be "weaponised"). It's simply unnecessary - play the topic, not the player!

Abba was a low blow, but to be fair, you were/are ignoring everything but the money angle.

It feels a bit like trying to debate Cameron on TV. Every answer he gives is the same, "because the economy."

If you want to talk about the money angle, go for it. Let's assume that Brexit happens and the EU loses the 12% of its budget that comes from us. And let's say that no trade agreements are agreed because unlimited migration is a red line we won't cross during negotiations.

Now 12% of a relatively small €155 billion may not seem like much. But in this scenario, the other EU countries (which by now are going through their own political instability because the EU is starting to come apart at the seams) have to find more money for the EU - and to do that while managing their own GDP falls (that massive problem for the UK you're so concerned about).

Likely the Euro is coming under pressure again, because Greece are still in real financial difficulty. Germany are still refusing to offer any debt relief, and their position has hardened because now they're on hook for a big share of the share the UK used to pay, and also because their motor industry is struggling to compete in one of its major markets due to tariffs.

What now? How does the EU manage to fill its budget hole? How does Germany? What happens to Greece? And the Euro?

And that's why the idea of failing to agree trade deals is complete nonsense. The stakes are too high. The other EU countries need trade as much as we do.

Isn't changing freedom of movement rules for the UK a small price to pay?

 

[websaway]

Now Cameron is attacking the largest sector of his opponents. The elderly, threatening to dilute the state pension. Well if he thought saying house prices would fall ( leading to more opportunity for first time buyers and lower rents ) would do the trick, he might just get another shock here. The elderly put him in power on pensions guarantees, he didn't say at the time it was only if they vote to stay in the undemocratic EU. I think the remains are so desperate now they will try anything.

 

[Edwin]

Sorry, am rushing out the door so this is necessarily short, but the rest of the EU only have to make up the difference between what the UK contributes and what it gets back out again in rebates, grants etc. because the UK won't get anything from the EU post-Brexit.

So the EU budget shortfall won't be 12% but a whole lot less.

 

[Edwin]

Sorry, am rushing out the door so this is necessarily short, but the rest of the EU only have to make up the difference between what the UK contributes and what it gets back out again in rebates, grants etc. because the UK won't get anything from the EU post-Brexit.

So the EU budget shortfall won't be 12% but a whole lot less.

Oh, and the UK has a $170 billion budget deficit (difference between govt income and what it spends.) Germany has a $25 billion surplus. There's slack there for it to pick up the UK's net EU contributions alone if it had to (though it would be politically sticky) without going into the red!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_budgets_by_country

Our giant deficit is also the reason why even relatively small downturns turn into fullblown recessions.

 

[Edwin]

And that's one of the main reasons for Germany's unemployment rate barely being affected by the 2008 global financial meltdown.

https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata...:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

 

[websaway]

Now Cameron is attacking the largest sector of his opponents. The elderly, threatening to dilute the state pension. Well if he thought saying house prices would fall ( leading to more opportunity for first time buyers and lower rents ) would do the trick, he might just get another shock here. The old put him in power on pensions guarantees, he didn't say at the time it was only if they vote to stay in the undemocratic EU. I think the remains are so desperate now they will try anything.

 

[websaway]

Cameron is laying it on thick about the risks of leaving.
It reminds me of a man sitting in his prison cell on the day of his release and pondering the problems he has after his release, he may naturally think it much safer and secure to be in a prison even though it denies him his liberty. Institutionalised .
I can just see all the labour supporters who he is appealing to save his neck, at least most of them would willingly man the noose. I think if he had been more statesmanlike from outset and laid his case out and let the people decide he may have had more support. People see him lying from every angle since his return from Brussels and that has not done his case much good.
He says "what can the leave campaign guarantee you ?"

Oh m what about immigration control and sovereignty . The things the English public feel matters above everything else. As they were asked to do in the second world war and answered the call.

 

[websaway]

There are six people in a boat with a bag of gold weighing 10 stone. They have a full capacity on board. They come across a man in the water and discuss the possibility of taking the man on board. The conversation revolves mostly around the devastating effects of throwing the gold overboard. The issue is particularly pertinent to the one of the six that owns the gold. Not sure how long he could continue to argue his case before the other five throw him overboard.

 

[martin-s]

Oh, and the UK has a $170 billion budget deficit (difference between govt income and what it spends.) Germany has a $25 billion surplus.

Germany's surplus is one of the Euro's biggest problems as I'm sure you know!

 

[Edwin]

Germany's surplus is one of the Euro's biggest problems as I'm sure you know!

You're mixing budget surplus up with trade surplus. Two different things.

 

[websaway]

Good article by Peter Hitchens in the DM
He says " Labour doesn’t love the poor. It loves the London elite. The Tories don’t love the country. They love only money."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...CHENS-British-people-risen-unleash-chaos.html

 

[websaway]

I know it is, but the economy drives everything ...like it or not

ee

Except in times of war or suchlike.

 

[websaway]

Sam Cam says this morning she will not gamble with her childrens future.
I can't say I blame her wanting the status quo when everything she has is perfect. And then on to eventually living in Brussels if David wins, and if the EU goes tits up off to America .. Nice to have choice, I'm sure the masses will relate favourably to her situation.

 

[websaway]

another interesting article for those undecided.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/679072/turkey-migrants-eu-visa-free-travel-referendum

 

[websaway]

Osbourne threatening more cuts this morning if we leave the EU.
Love to know how he is going to get his measures through the unelected Lords, he's had a lot of problems lately. How did he know we were voting out when he attacked WTC and Disability benefits or do these things happen anyway. I can't understand why he has not said the rich will have to pay a wealth tax to help bolster the economy. Could it be that he already has their vote.

 

[martin-s]

You're mixing budget surplus up with trade surplus. Two different things.

I'm not sure if you think I'm stupid, but I'm starting to feel like I'm being talked down to.

We are both talking about the budget surplus.

 

[websaway]

Those most worried about immigration are those with the least experience of it - just look at the UKIP demographics.

If you mean the refugee crisis, leaving the EU does not mean we can wash our hands of those fleeing warzones.

Historically we were quite good at helping with that sort of issue - and countries that do have always been richer for it - literally

How can you sort out who you should help to accommodate when there is no way of knowing how many are coming ?

 

[Mark84]

Without leaving the EEA, we'd be bound by a whole host of regulations that those voting for brexit want to get away from - including free movement, one of the main reasons people are voting for brexit to begin with.

Nope sorry may have crossed wires, what I mean is that the UK if votes for Brexit, the people are not voting to leave the EEA. If the EU / EEA members require the UK to leave because of the Brexit then so be it.

If negotiations don't get special exemptions to free movement of workers, then yes we would be leaving be default. I just don't think a brexit vote means automatically the negotiations team doesn't try to get exemptions to stay.

There are benefits of course to leaving the EEA, stop passporting and make companies pay UK taxes more easily. Enforce UK regulations , whilst I don't agree with some UK regulations on financial products. The very fact that I can move my business to another EEA country and trade back to the UK over the internet and totally avoid FCA rules is odd.

 

[gimpydog]

"The UK’s air pollution crisis would get worse if the country votes to leave the European Union, according to a new poll of environment professionals.
The poll, of almost 1,200 professionals, found that 48% thought standards for UK air quality would get worse if the UK left the EU..."

or, you could say...

A new poll found that 52% of environment professionals do NOT think the UK’s air pollution crisis would get worse if the country votes to leave the European Union.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...increase-uks-air-pollution-crisis-say-experts