Enjoy unlimited access to all forum features for FREE! Optional upgrade available for extra perks.

EU Referendum

Acorn EU Poll

  • Remain

    Votes: 28 30.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 57 61.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 8 8.6%

  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
"The UK’s air pollution crisis would get worse if the country votes to leave the European Union, according to a new poll of environment professionals.

The poll, of almost 1,200 professionals, found that 48% thought standards for UK air quality would get worse if the UK left the EU, with just 4% expecting they would improve and 42% saying they would stay the same."
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...increase-uks-air-pollution-crisis-say-experts
 
But he did get reform since then! A number of reforms. Some will activate automatically as soon as a "Remain" vote is declared, others will be ratified in the weeks and months afterwards. You may not believe the reforms he obtained were "sufficient", but it is incorrect to say that he didn't get them.

The only thing that Cameron's reforms achieved is evidential proof of how little the EU is willing to negotiate on its planned direction.

The changes Cameron came back with are meagre at best - and are open to being watered down even further. Perhaps even likely to be.

The whole fiasco was the perfect example of why being in Europe doesn't give us significant voice and influence over change that we are being told it does. Generally speaking, most of Europe want Europe to go in a different direction than we do.

Even the Remainers.

Other European countries hated even giving us the little ground that they did. Why should the troublemakers be given a special deal?

So why the lack of foresight? Why stay in a relationship that's bad for us and continues to get worse? Why compound the problem? Because it's too scary or difficult to leave?

If you accept the direction that Europe is going in, and our lack of power to change that, because that's what the other members of this democracy want, surely in a sane man's mind, surely the only option is leave.

If you take the current direction towards a federal Europe to its ultimate conclusion, the rich countries must subsidise the poor, as they do in any society.

Germany, France, Italy, the UK, Spain and to a lesser extent the Netherlands and Belgium are already net contributors to the likes of Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc. Each of whom gets 3x or more from the EU what they put in.

But for the EU project to "work", it must be increasingly so. And in order to do that, the EU must increasingly legislate over its members. Budget approvals, legal supremacy, the works.

Being so fearful about the risk of a dip in the economy that you can't see the wood for the trees is, to me, putting the cart in front of the horse.

Quite simply, it's bonkers.
 
Here's the timeline...

Nuanced isn't the word. Here's a cynic's view of the timeline:
  • Started talking to other countries about what they would and wouldn't consider as red lines. Pissed lots of them off by not having clear negotiation objectives, but couldn't do that because couldn't afford egg on face.
  • Pulled together a number of very weak requirements.
  • Negotiated his way to a more and more watered down version of each goal, just enough so that he could maintain a remain position in the referendum.
  • Talked up what a massive result it was and how successful he'd been, while most commentators sniggered behind him.
  • Rewrote history about his original intentions
  • Now claims that leaving the EU is a completely foolhardy idea, the road to financial ruin and war on the continent.
 
If you take the current direction towards a federal Europe to its ultimate conclusion, the rich countries must subsidise the poor, as they do in any society.

"Does Britain face extra EU costs?
The claim: Britain's contribution to the EU will have to increase because the EU is "living beyond its means" and the European Parliament has asked for more money to spend on dealing with the migrant crisis. The UK will also be liable for additional payments to bail out eurozone countries.

Reality Check verdict: The UK has a veto on the overall size of the EU budget and it's already been agreed that non-eurozone countries won't have to pay for future eurozone bailouts."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36462016

(There's a lot more detail at the link - I just posted the summary above)

---------------

"Will the UK pay for future Eurozone bailouts?
The claim: The Vote Leave campaign is claiming that "UK taxpayers will keep paying for the huge bills caused by the euro crisis" and that "these bills will only increase".

Reality Check verdict: The UK will not pay for future eurozone bailouts. This has already been agreed by EU leaders. In addition, the UK-EU deal from February, which will be implemented if the UK votes to stay in the EU, reinforces this and states that the UK would be reimbursed if the general EU budget is used for the cost of the eurozone crisis."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

(ditto)
 
The EU budget increases every year, despite UK opposition. And that's before you bring the migration crisis into play.

But you're just continuing to play the same single card all the time.

Money, money, money.

Are you an ABBA fan? :)
 
The EU budget increases every year, despite UK opposition. And that's before you bring the migration crisis into play.

The EU budget for 2014-2020 has already been agreed, and is lower than the previous period by nearly £29 billion. This was widely reported back in 2013 when it was negotiated.
 
You only reply to the bits you want to :)

I reply to the bits that seem to be fact-based yet incorrect with sources or data that debunk those facts :)

As for anything that smacks of a personal attack, well it has no place in this thread (even Abba can be "weaponised"). It's simply unnecessary - play the topic, not the player!
 
The EU budget increases every year, despite UK opposition. And that's before you bring the migration crisis into play.

But you're just continuing to play the same single card all the time.

Money, money, money.

Are you an ABBA fan? :)

Those most worried about immigration are those with the least experience of it - just look at the UKIP demographics.

If you mean the refugee crisis, leaving the EU does not mean we can wash our hands of those fleeing warzones.

Historically we were quite good at helping with that sort of issue - and countries that do have always been richer for it - literally
 
I would say, without checking first, that, on that period, they are very accurate & I'll tell you why; they can see it coming & have a relatively small margin for error. Push the horizon out to fourteen days & they are completely buggered.
It's no great surprise that weather forecasts become less accurate the longer the time period they cover, but that's not the point. There are other professions in which the experts make predictions about the longer term future - not just 14 days but 14 months, with variable levels of probability. My broader point however is that, contrary to what the leave camp have been messaging for the past week, experts and their predictions shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. We don't have to accept everything a self-proclaimed expert says without question, but neither should we automatically dismiss the widely respected organisations of experts, the predictions that they make and the utility of expertise itself, because however much or however little weight it carries, its more weight than non-experts carry. And because in the vast majority of cases, they aren't stating what will happen with 100% certainty - they are assessing risk. The sneering and casual dismissal of experts and elites and "intellectual know-it-alls" that we see from a growing number in politics and the media is populism pure and simple, designed to fool the person on the street by pandering to the ego. I feel that I'm repeating myself here so we may have to agree to disagree on this.
 
What ever happened to Lord Rose, the chairman of the 'remain' campaign?

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Haven't seen him in weeks. I'm beginning to get worried :confused:
The guy was a total and utter disaster.
 
Another snarky article that was reasonably amusing while still making some good points, especially about "experts" and "scaremongering". I particularly liked this bit...
“Scaremongering” is a word for the encouragement of fears that aren’t reasonable. But a lot of fears are reasonable. If I warn you not to jump into the lions’ enclosure at the zoo because the lions might eat you, you would be ill-advised to yell “Scaremonger!” as you scramble joyfully over the fence.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/10/brexit-what-is-in-a-name
 
I'm curious: do you see the "Leave" position as being somehow anti-establishment? It seems to have a bit of that sort of vibe. I ask because Boris Johnson went to Eton and Oxford, Michael Gove went to Oxford too, and Nigel Farage went to public school.

But perhaps I'm reading the tealeaves wrong...
 
Enjoyed this bit about the latest Opinium/Observer Poll:

"It shows 46% of Tory voters backing staying in the EU against 43% who want to leave and 63% of Labour voters staying in against 28% who want to leave. The figures for Ukip are 93% and 5%. When undecided voters were “nudged” to say which side they were leaning towards 38% said they were leaning to Remain and 26% to Leave."

So 1 in 20 UKIP voters is voting Remain. There's hope yet :)
 
I'm curious: do you see the "Leave" position as being somehow anti-establishment? It seems to have a bit of that sort of vibe. I ask because Boris Johnson went to Eton and Oxford, Michael Gove went to Oxford too, and Nigel Farage went to public school.
Leave is definitely the maverick option but the fact that it's being championed by so many establishment types is what makes it interesting. (I'm still waiting for the V for Vendetta masks. :cool:)
 
A long read, but thought-provoking (and gloomy with it): "Why I've changed my mind on Brexit"
https://opendemocracy.net/uk/aaron-bastani/why-ive-changed-my-mind-on-brexit

The guy is a fecking idiot of the highest order, first of all he's saying that if we leave the EU that involves us leaving the EEA - does it? That's the first I have heard of that. Hopefully he knows the difference between the EEA and the EU.

He's arguing against democracy because he doesn't like the right wing in the UK. Well that's just tough isn't it, that's how democracy works. Sometimes people out vote you, and sometimes you get your way. Man the hell up and live with it.

Now I wasn't aware but it wasn't challeneged by the remain side during the debates but the EU, is reported to have a 2/3rd's right leaning parliament, 2/3 of the commissioners are right leaning apparently. They must be peeing themselves laughing, give the left what they want for a few years, get them to cut down their own democratic protections because they think they are getting what they want and then BANG - the EU goes all right wing and takes them out.

Where is your holiday pay then? Where is your maternity pay?

Don't come crying to me when you lot on the left get rear ended by this thing in a few years - oh wait it's already happening with something called TTIP. The most right wing policy ever.

Left wing polices from the EU are like a introductory offer on your credit card, sign you up and then hit you with the interest. Just some people are too dumb to see the trap that they are walking into. Then when they don't get what they want they sit there moaning about a lack of democracy that they themselves signed up to give away.
 
The guy is a fecking idiot of the highest order, first of all he's saying that if we leave the EU that involves us leaving the EEA - does it? That's the first I have heard of that. Hopefully he knows the difference between the EEA and the EU.

Without leaving the EEA, we'd be bound by a whole host of regulations that those voting for brexit want to get away from - including free movement, one of the main reasons people are voting for brexit to begin with.

Though we don't need to leave the EEA anyway. We are currently only in the EEA through virtue of being part of the EU so the guy is right, if we leave the EU we will have to apply to join the EEA (through the European Free Trade Organisation) needing every single member of the EU to agree to us to do so. Norway is an EEA member without being in the EU, they abide by fewer regulations but still the "Four Freedoms": the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital.

The exception is Switzerland who are in the EFTA but didn't join the EEA. They are essentially a special exception because:

""From the perspective of the EU, the treaties largely contain the same content as the EEA treaties, making Switzerland a virtual member of the EEA. Most EU law applies universally throughout the EU, the EEA and Switzerland, providing most of the conditions of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital that apply to full member states. Switzerland pays into the EU budget and extended the bilateral treaties to the new EU member states, just like full members did, although each extension requires the approval of Swiss voters in a referendum." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

So whether in or out we will pay significant amounts to the EU (Norway are in the EEA but not EU and pays almost as much as we do per capita). If we 'leave' we will have no say in regulations that we have to adhere to if we wish to deal with EU countries - granted they will have no say in ours either but we are one country and they are a block, so we'll suffer more if trade terms are bad and so on. If we are frozen out of the EEA - something suggested by the german government on account that we're leaving the EU rather than seeking to form a close/closer union + as an example to put other countries off leaving - we'd likely not be given special treatment like Switzerland.

Germany has gone 'all in' with the EU and 'may' believe the EU has less to lose by making life more difficult for us, than in creating a 'look how great life is outside of the EU' scenario. If Scotland had left the UK and said "Can we have a good deal after please?" we'd laugh. We have more might and muscle as a country and would have to hope that held some sway. Outside of the EU and EEA we would then be limited to free trade with Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland. In that situation we wouldn't have to follow the 'four freedoms' though it would impact our economy of course in being excluded from the EEA, lots of tarrifs and so on. It all depends how people feel about that balance.

Logically, being that getting out of 'free movement of people' is number one on the list of brexiter concerns, that is the prefered option I assume. Some European countries are just as eager to ensure that this is the road we take if we leave. If as a country people really can't bare to live with the current immigration numbers, or a closer EU, or sees the EU as being on a collision course with an iceburg at some point, then I can understand why a Leave vote would win. Maybe we can carve out a niche of our own, or get a good arrangement with EU countries even though it would be counter to their vision of keeping the EU together. Leave or stay, I don't know what will happen, I really don't and nor does anyone else. That's the problem. It may even be that the EU comes back to us post-vote with significant concessions confusing matters further.

One thought I had is "i'd be nice to leave second instead of first". In that scenario you get a clear view of whether the grass is greener on the other side and of consequences. That thought must be equally in the minds of those who are as passionate about keeping the EU together at any cost. As result, maybe we'll have to put up with a few years of the economy going off the rails and things being tougher for everyone. Of course if the EU does collapse somewhere down the line, a decision to leave could be seen in quite a brave light. My ideal is for power to be very local, more regional even than national, so I'm no super fan of an ever closer EU by any means, but it's nice if people know what they are getting into or out of rather than the remain and leave campaigns, who are both just mud slinging at this point.
 
Last edited:
The guy is a fecking idiot of the highest order, first of all he's saying that if we leave the EU that involves us leaving the EEA - does it? That's the first I have heard of that. Hopefully he knows the difference between the EEA and the EU.

newguy responded to this effectively.

I'll just add: there has been so much relatively glib talk from the Leave camp about the various trade "models" that the UK could adopt post-Brext that it's not clear if people understand that the current EU arrangement isn't like an onion. You can't peel off layers of agreement until you get to the one you want, then stop. There's one layer (the EU) and nothing below that.

If the UK leaves the EU then it defaults to WTO rules, with membership of zero trade areas. No more free movement of people, but no more free trade in goods or services either. No ifs, no buts, that's what will happen as a baseline. There are two years in which to negotiate something better, but there is no guarantee of getting anything more than WTO.

These various trading models and memberships are not like a box of chocolates either - we don't get to dip into to pick which one we like. Every other alternative (beyond WTO) will have to be negotiated for, and will only be possible with agreement secured from ALL parties.

So for example EEA membership would have to be negotiated from scratch. At present, membership of the EEA requires the free movement of people (just like membership of the EU). So unless a special exception was made for the UK, EEA membership outside the EU would give no more or less "control" over the UK's borders than there is now. There is no indication whatsoever that such a "special exception" would be forthcoming.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

The Rule #1

Do not insult any other member. Be polite and do business. Thank you!

Members online

No members online now.

Sedo - it.com Premiums

IT.com

Premium Members

Acorn Domains Merch
MariaBuy Marketplace

New Threads

Domain Forum Friends

Other domain-related communities we can recommend.

Our Mods' Businesses

Perfect
Laskos
*the exceptional businesses of our esteemed moderators
Top Bottom