EU Referendum

[martin-s]

Maybe make them a bit less savage chase the brits named in the Panama papers like Mr Cameron's late old man who manage wealth built on the opportunities this country have given them in ways which hide it from the British tax man.
And don't get me started on the multinationals like google look at the figure we came up with for back taxes compared to France.

The very people who are advocating remain you mean?

 

[websaway]

"An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today."

Laurence J peter

 

[Edwin]

It could be because there are not many experts living in deprived areas of Britain. At least not any on the gravy train.

"An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today."

Laurence J peter

It's not just economists. It's NHS professionals, trades unions leaders, politicians, academics, etc. etc. The list I linked to is vast.

 

[AssetDomains]

The very people who are advocating remain you mean?

I though both camps had a pretty broad spectrum supporting there argument
I'm just saying its great for Boris he can blame everything wrong with public services on immigration Cameron and Osborne wont really attack his lies because people might then look deeper into the problem and the myth that uncontrolled immigration has crippled are services for the last 10 years is perpetuated. Sturgeon and Eagle called him on it last night an the debate slowly started moving to sovereignty

 

[martin-s]

Simple question on immigration only then Edwin: Are you happy to accept the same net migration figures as we've been having every year for the next 20-30 years while traditionally poorer economies normalise with the EU?

And actually a follow-up to that, could net migration suck so much economic value out of from those countries (into ours) that it damages their economies to a level where they can only be supported by EU payments?

 

[Edwin]

Simple question on immigration only then Edwin: Are you happy to accept the same net migration figures as we've been having every year for the next 20-30 years while traditionally poorer economies normalise with the EU?

And actually a follow-up to that, could net migration suck so much economic value out of from those countries (into ours) that it damages their economies to a level where they can only be supported by EU payments?

That's a very loaded "simple" question, because it hides two big assumptions:
- the net migration figures will be the same for the next 20-30 years
- traditionally poorer economies will normalise with the EU

I'm not convinced on either of those assumptions so I'm not open to empty speculation against them. What I am convinced about though, 100.00%, is that immigration concerns alone do not provide sufficient real-world justification to vote Leave (if the decision to stay/leave is being taken on a "logical" basis)

As to your follow-up, that's a very interesting hypothetical... If I understand it correctly, you're essentially saying "what if the UK does so fantastically well out of immigrants that their home countries have problems?" Well, in that case we'll be reaping the rewards without being on the hook for the downside since the UK has secured a binding opt-out from future EU bailouts. Happy days...

 

[signature]

Just because criminals, zealots and scroungers don't live on my street doesn't mean they don't exist.
Your reply is exactly what I expected also, if you mention immigration is a problem you must be stupid and secretly racist.
Get off your moral high horse and stop patronising people because they have a different opinion to yours.

You funny dude, not sure what opinion you have that is different from mine and if you want to call yourself resist, that's up to you, I did not call you racist and the word does not exist in my comment.

Everybody here agree that we have issuesecured with immigration, but you calling immigrants all the dirty words when you don't even know a single immigrant that qualify your accusation.

Yes there are immigrants that are criminals, no doubt but there are criminals in other part of the world that are British, some British criminals are hiding in other part of Europe, it's a two way thing, it's not unique to the UK.

Like I said in my last post debate issues around immigration, don't blame immigrants, they don't make policies our positions do, blame them.

It's always the same, my immigrant friends are neighbours are the good ones, the others are bad.

We have Prison population of a little over 100k, even if all are immigrants, that's 1% of all immigrants population, I am sure the immigrants population in prison is probably 5% of the prison population.

Stick to the debate and stop calling immigrants names.

 

[denchomsky]

You funny dude, not sure what opinion you have that is different from mine and if you want to call yourself resist, that's up to you, I did not call you racist and the word does not exist in my comment.

Everybody here agree that we have issuesecured with immigration, but you calling immigrants all the dirty words when you don't even know a single immigrant that qualify your accusation.

Yes there are immigrants that are criminals, no doubt but there are criminals in other part of the world that are British, some British criminals are hiding in other part of Europe, it's a two way thing, it's not unique to the UK.

Like I said in my last post debate issues around immigration, don't blame immigrants, they don't make policies our positions do, blame them.

It's always the same, my immigrant friends are neighbours are the good ones, the others are bad.

We have Prison population of a little over 100k, even if all are immigrants, that's 1% of all immigrants population, I am sure the immigrants population in prison is probably 5% of the prison population.

Stick to the debate and stop calling immigrants names.

You obviously choose to pick up on specific parts of posts to suit your repost, READ THE ORIGINAL POST where I used these terms, I did not once say that all migrants fall under these categories. Then maybe read some other posts after that I have commented on, you sound exactly like a ranting foaming politician passing judgement and twisting headlines to suit your agenda.

 

[signature]

You obviously choose to pick up on specific parts of posts to suit your repost, READ THE ORIGINAL POST where I used these terms, I did not once say that all migrants fall under these categories. Then maybe read some other posts after that I have commented on, you sound exactly like a ranting foaming politician passing judgement and twisting headlines to suit your agenda.

You could have said most immigrants are nice people instead of the other way round.

I will let you be, you like ending your comments with funny personal comments.

Good luck...

 

[denchomsky]

You could have said most immigrants are nice people instead of the other way round.

I will let you be, you like ending your comments with funny personal comments.

Good luck...

I didn't use the word 'most' in a negative statement so why would I say it in a positive one?
Correct? oh sorry that doesn't suit your argument.

Good luck to you to.

 

[Edwin]

Here's the information about immigration and crime in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#United_Kingdom

A few takeaways:
"In total, foreigners represented 13% of the prison population, whereas foreign nationals are 13% of the total population in England and Wales."

"Research has found no evidence of an average causal impact of immigration on crime."

"A 2008 study found that the crime rate of Eastern European immigrants was the same as that of the indigenous population."

If you Google around the topic, it's interesting to see that the newspapers that are traditionally "anti immigration" are delighted to use the numeric rise in immigrant crime levels as a splashy headline, without pointing out that it's no greater than the rise in immigrant numbers or that immigrants are just as likely/unlikely to be criminals as Brits.

 

[martin-s]

What I am convinced about though, 100.00%, is that immigration concerns alone do not provide sufficient real-world justification to vote Leave (if the decision to stay/leave is being taken on a "logical" basis)

Of course immigration alone isn't a justification. For me the decision to vote leave is based on:

• Regaining control of sovereignty on a number of issues
• Avoiding further erosion of sovereignty (death by a thousand cuts)
• A belief that European countries, cultures and economies are too different to become an EU superstate. And that the EU is already failing by trying.
• A belief that the Euro continues to be in serious trouble.
• A belief that the pace of immigration is too fast for us to keep up with currently - and could get worse
• Recognition that the UK cannot change the EU direction through negotiation alone. If it is to change, it is going to require a shock to the system.
• An innate sense that I am British (not English, because actually I'm Welsh, just don't tell anyone) rather than European
• Distrust and a personal disconnect with the MEP system
• Shock at the lack of audited acceptance of the EU budget - and how much MEPs cost
• Faith that we are a big, proud and resourceful country, capable of making our own way in the world.
• Probably some other stuff

 

[martin-s]

As to your follow-up, that's a very interesting hypothetical... If I understand it correctly, you're essentially saying "what if the UK does so fantastically well out of immigrants that their home countries have problems?" Well, in that case we'll be reaping the rewards without being on the hook for the downside since the UK has secured a binding opt-out from future EU bailouts. Happy days...

I meant from the other countries' perspectives. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Shouldn't we have some empathy for their needs too?

 

[websaway]

It's not just economists. It's NHS professionals, trades unions leaders, politicians, academics, etc. etc. The list I linked to is vast.

How can you call these experts on the issue of EU membership. They may well ( questionably ) be experts in their own field and each has their own interests furthermost in their objectives. Why have we not heard the trade unions, most of whom wanted to join with the communist bloc in the 70's, give there views on English sovereignty.
Trying to get blocks of people, NHS employees, Car workers, Students, etc to vote remain may well have been the remain campaign shooting themselves in the foot. Some of these organisations have even sent out directives in writing telling people they should vote remain. But people see what's happening around them and they don't like these organisations conveniently ignoring the things that long term affect them most. Immigration and sovereignty. They may well turn around and say P*ss off and don't tell me what to do.
If you vote out you may well lose your job, if you vote in, you will lose your democracy, your liberty, your sovereignty, and their is no guarantee that you will not lose your job to the millions who may be competing with you for it over the coming years.

 

[denchomsky]

Of course immigration alone isn't a justification. For me the decision to vote leave is based on:

• Regaining control of sovereignty on a number of issues
• Avoiding further erosion of sovereignty (death by a thousand cuts)
• A belief that European countries, cultures and economies are too different to become an EU superstate. And that the EU is already failing by trying.
• A belief that the Euro continues to be in serious trouble.
• A belief that the pace of immigration is too fast for us to keep up with currently - and could get worse
• Recognition that the UK cannot change the EU direction through negotiation alone. If it is to change, it is going to require a shock to the system.
• An innate sense that I am British (not English, because actually I'm Welsh, just don't tell anyone) rather than European
• Distrust and a personal disconnect with the MEP system
• Shock at the lack of audited acceptance of the EU budget - and how much MEPs cost
• Faith that we are a big, proud and resourceful country, capable of making our own way in the world.
• Probably some other stuff

Ditto, except for the Welsh bit

 

[websaway]

Here's the information about immigration and crime in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#United_Kingdom

A few takeaways:
"In total, foreigners represented 13% of the prison population, whereas foreign nationals are 13% of the total population in England and Wales."

"Research has found no evidence of an average causal impact of immigration on crime."

"A 2008 study found that the crime rate of Eastern European immigrants was the same as that of the indigenous population."

If you Google around the topic, it's interesting to see that the newspapers that are traditionally "anti immigration" are delighted to use the numeric rise in immigrant crime levels as a splashy headline, without pointing out that it's no greater than the rise in immigrant numbers or that immigrants are just as likely/unlikely to be criminals as Brits.

Are you from another common sense planet . We are obliged to accommodate the 13% of our indigenous population at Her majesties pleasure at a cost of £100,000 per year for each one. We really don't want to import the 13% of someone else's criminals. This figure should really be 0%.

 

[AssetDomains]

oh yes, be my guest... if only there were away to sort them from the convicted criminals, zealots and scroungers??....mmm..oh we can't because anyone can come in.

You obviously choose to pick up on specific parts of posts to suit your repost, READ THE ORIGINAL POST where I used these terms, I did not once say that all migrants fall under these categories. Then maybe read some other posts after that I have commented on, you sound exactly like a ranting foaming politician passing judgement and twisting headlines to suit your agenda.

I picked up on what you said in the first post above I hadn't seen anything positive about migration before then if you did I apologise
But can you and other leavers see how to liberals like myself who think leave have some good points on law and democracy
can be put of with comments such a good reason to leave is because there's no way " to sort them from the convicted criminals, zealots and scroungers??...." ,"if we don't white people will become a minority"(I know you didn't say this other leavers have just trying to make a point)
Compared to "we should leave because then we get full control of our borders that's a good thing because some areas of the country are feeling real strain on public services" both pretty much say we have to take control of migration the later just doesn't make people like me question if they have views like the above do I really want to be associating with their point of view.
Leavers you have the isolationists on board already they are voting out there's no need to bring everything back to immigration especially if your going to use shakey facts or divisive statements when doing so

 

[AssetDomains]

Of course immigration alone isn't a justification. For me the decision to vote leave is based on:

• Regaining control of sovereignty on a number of issues
• Avoiding further erosion of sovereignty (death by a thousand cuts)
• A belief that European countries, cultures and economies are too different to become an EU superstate. And that the EU is already failing by trying.
• A belief that the Euro continues to be in serious trouble.
• A belief that the pace of immigration is too fast for us to keep up with currently - and could get worse
• Recognition that the UK cannot change the EU direction through negotiation alone. If it is to change, it is going to require a shock to the system.
• An innate sense that I am British (not English, because actually I'm Welsh, just don't tell anyone) rather than European
• Distrust and a personal disconnect with the MEP system
• Shock at the lack of audited acceptance of the EU budget - and how much MEPs cost
• Faith that we are a big, proud and resourceful country, capable of making our own way in the world.
• Probably some other stuff

All massive valid strong arguments Leavers shout loud and proud about these equally and you will pull liberals to your side of the table. Or keep shouting loudest about Boris and Nigel's mistruths on migration and drive us away from your argument

 

[bonusmedia]

Are you from another common sense planet . We are obliged to accommodate the 13% of our indigenous population at Her majesties pleasure at a cost of £100,000 per year for each one. We really don't want to import the 13% of someone else's criminals. This figure should really be 0%.

I think we should ban crime. Problem solved.

 

[BREWSTERS]

It doesn't get mentioned often enough that MPs from across the political spectrum are in favour of staying by a ratio of over 3-to-1 (463 to 147), as are 17 out of 22 members of the cabinet.

But because the law requires the mainstream media (especially but not exclusively the BBC) to give equal amounts of coverage to both sides, it's easy to think that translates into an equal weight of support for both views.

I'm amazed that the number of MP's for remain isn't higher....asking MP's to vote against bureaucracy is like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. The fact a quarter are voting against it speaks volumes - out of any group you could mention, they are the most likely to vote remain.