EU Referendum

[denchomsky]

This is the exact answer I expect to get, the immigrants friends and neighbours are usually nice and okay, it's always the other immigrant we don't see that's the issue.

If the ones on your street are nice why don't you have that image when you describe immigrants instead of criminals, zealous and scroungers.

I don't think anybody on this discussion have issues with controlled immigration, you need to stop using that kind of tone to describe a set of people because there happen to be few bad apples.

There are over 3M EU nationals in the UK, about 1% are on in work benefits, I can't see that makes most immigrant to be scroungers.

Yes, immigrants are hard working, so are British citizen, the difference is immigrants are more desperate since most have no immediate family member to turn to when they arrive here, hence they do any job for minimum wage or zero hour contracts.

Stick to the debate of uncontrolled immigration(valid point) and stop calling immigrants all the bad names you can think of.

Just because criminals, zealots and scroungers don't live on my street doesn't mean they don't exist.
Your reply is exactly what I expected also, if you mention immigration is a problem you must be stupid and secretly racist.
Get off your moral high horse and stop patronising people because they have a different opinion to yours.

 

[websaway]

Bravo! You're spot on. But the way to do that is at the next General Election, not during the referendum which, no matter how emotive it may feel, is NOT simplistically a referendum on how the current lot in power are doing on one issue out of many, but far far more important and more long-term a decision than that, taking in a vast range of issues.

The correct solution is to Remain and then give the Tories a massive kicking at the next G.E. for failing to stick to their immigration manifesto promises. I would have thought that will be pretty easy (assuming Remain prevails) since there will be a lot of Leave-leaning voters ready to put the boot in, and UKIP won't have got their way and therefore won't have been rendered irrelevant.

Remember, regardless of how you vote in the referendum, it will either be Tories or other Tories in charge of the country for the next 4 years. The result of the vote on 23 June won't change that. Farage will go back to vote-dodging in the European parliament, the small handful of Leave politicians from non-Tory parties will slink quietly back to Westminster, and the Tories will continue to form the government.

But surely the crux of the matter is that it's fast becoming irrelevant who we elect in 4 years because our laws and policies are not being made in Westminster but are being made in Brussels. You can not even have an immigration policy if you have uncontrolled free movement of people.
I don't share your view on the remain vote. I think the momentum is moving towards leave as ordinary people become aware that it is not racist to control immigration, and a leave vote will go someway to curing a problem that affects millions of underprivileged people. Though the problem won't be obvious in Cambridge. Or to anyone who has a privileged life.

 

[martin-s]

No. I am honestly saying that uncontrolled immigration is not the root cause of most of the problems many in the Leave camp ascribe to it.

So long as they persist in promoting that fallacy, it's impossible to take the rest of their arguments seriously.

Immigration isn't the only cause of most of the bigger issues, I completely agree. But the recent influx is an issue - and more controllable immigration is needed to improve the situation.

But that's impossible while in the EU.

And the reality is that when Albania and Slovakia and Turkey (if/when) join, the same influx is likely to be repeated.

I've employed EU nationals in my company, as have other members in my family. One of the most interesting things is how much money they send back to their home country - to their wife and kids if they didn't bring them, or to their parents if not. Even a small amount makes a huge difference to their families. I've worked with non-EU nationals in the past too - and the story was the same.

People come here for the higher wages. If you have limitless (is that a less offensive term than "uncontrolled"?) immigration with less well-off nations, you have to expect it.

 

[Edwin]

I know this is not the fault of the immigrants, but blame is irrelevant.

When you say "fault", do you mean "they can't help it"? Or do you mean "they're not the cause of it"?

 

[martin-s]

The really disgusting aspect of the referendum campaign on the Leave side is to see politicians like Johnson and Gove, who are from the party that is at the root of so many cutbacks and austerity drives that there are huge holes in public service pin things on immigrants.

You can't keep spending money you don't have Edwin. Austerity may not be very nice, but I can understand why it's necessary.

 

[websaway]

The really disgusting aspect of the referendum campaign on the Leave side is to see politicians like Johnson and Gove, who are from the party that is at the root of so many cutbacks and austerity drives that there are huge holes in public service pin things on immigrants.

It's a very very astute weasel tactic from them, because if Leave win they're likely to be in (and/or leading) the Tories in charge of the country, and suddenly the fangs have been pulled from the "too much austerity" argument that has dogged the government for the last six years.

They will be able to whatever they like while hiding behind the shield that it was necessary because of "immigration".

Make no mistake. They may not be principled, but Boris and his Leave group are not "stupid" people. You can be 100.00% sure that they understand the nuances of the situation. And they've chosen to ignore the real problem (their own party's policies) and given the angry populace a windmill to tilt at (immigration).

Now you are looking at the politics instead of focusing on the key issues of Immigration and national sovereignty. There are people who want to be, Europe not England, and there are people who want to be England, and not simply a state of Europe with all the stripping of sovereignty and dilution of culture that that entails. It's normally the stuff that revolutions are made of.

 

[denchomsky]

Stick to the debate of uncontrolled immigration(valid point) and stop calling immigrants all the bad names you can think of.

Did you actually read the post where my original comment spawned?...or did you just jump on the 'Criminals, Zealots and Scroungers' part and presume that I labelled all immigrants as one of these?

 

[denchomsky]

When you say "fault", do you mean "they can't help it"? Or do you mean "they're not the cause of it"?

The latter.

 

[Edwin]

The current pressure on public services comes from:
- rapidly aging population
- austerity drives
- rising birth rate
- government cutbacks
- chronic underinvestment by successive governments in infrastructure and basic services
- immigration

(the bullets in bold are the responsibility/fault of the current government and therefore those on BOTH sides of the referendum debate should, by rights, be held to account for them)

It is also worth noting that immigration both helps AND hinders the situation. Huge numbers of key staff in the NHS are from overseas (and have been needed to plug the "skills gap" that has developed over the last decade or so). Plus immigrants contribute more into the system than they cost the system, so while they may be occupying the time of a dentist or a doctor, they're also indirectly helping someone from the UK see a dentist or a doctor by paying not only for their own time but for that taken up by the person from the UK.

Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini, two researchers at University College London, concluded that between 2001 and 2011, new migrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 contributed £5bn more in taxes than they received in benefits and public services. By contrast, over the same period, UK-born people imposed a net cost on the exchequer of £617bn.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b12181a0-2332-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#ixzz4BAKsWv2y

By contrast, the Leave camp's list often feels more like this...

The current pressure on public services comes from:
- immigration
- more immigration
- still more immigration
- oh, and some more immigration

 

[Edwin]

The latter.

Then if they're not the cause of it, why vote in a referendum on the basis of wanting to "solve" it that way?

 

[denchomsky]

The current pressure on public services comes from:
- rapidly aging population
- austerity drives
- rising birth rate
- government cutbacks
- chronic underinvestment by successive governments in infrastructure and basic services
- immigration

(the bullets in bold are the responsibility/fault of the current government and therefore those on BOTH sides of the referendum debate should, by rights, be held to account for them)

It is also worth noting that immigration both helps AND hinders the situation. Huge numbers of key staff in the NHS are from overseas (and have been needed to plug the "skills gap" that has developed over the last decade or so). Plus immigrants contribute more into the system than they cost the system, so while they may be occupying the time of a dentist or a doctor, they're also indirectly helping someone from the UK see a dentist or a doctor by paying not only for their own time but for that taken up by the person from the UK.

Yes, I totally agree, and all the educated, open minded, integrated immigrants that come to this country are doing a brilliant job.
You do know that these people will not be made to leave if we vote to leave the EU?... and with controlled immigration we can continue to welcome these important migrants that thankfully choose the UK to practice their skills.

 

[martin-s]

The current pressure on public services comes from:
- rapidly aging population
- austerity drives
- rising birth rate
- government cutbacks
- chronic underinvestment by successive governments in infrastructure and basic services
- immigration

Aging population > generally seen as a good thing, and certainly nothing you can change.

Austerity > Unpleasant, but short term investment must be backed by funding. Using debt for investment is a short term solution and one that is no longer practical when the cost of servicing the debt becomes prohibitive because total debt is already too high.

Rising birth rate > As far as I know, there is actually a declining birth rate. Though I seem to remember hearing that immigrant birth rates are higher than UK nationals at some point in this campaign. I can't seem to find a source for that, but here's two on the declining birth rate:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat.../birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2015-07-15
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28330429

Government cutbacks > Is this different from austerity? Are you guilty of including the same point in your list twice, as you accuse others of?

Chronic underinvestment in infrastructure > I completely agree with this and there is an argument for using long term debt for infrstructure investments.

Immigration > Well done on finally getting there. I bet it was hard for you to admit it

 

[denchomsky]

Then if they're not the cause of it, why vote in a referendum on the basis of wanting to "solve" it that way?

Why are you presuming that immigration is the main motivating factor when making my decision?
This discussion is about immigration, so I am airing my views about that subject.

 

[Edwin]

Sorry, in my mind when I was posting, "austerity" was not raising investment in line with trends such as inflation, population greying etc. while "government cutbacks" was reducing investment. You're quite right, they're different parts of the same spectrum.

 

[websaway]

So long as people continue to dilute very complex problems with a whole host of causes down to a knee-jerk, made-for-slogans "uncontrolled immigration", their argument will NEVER be credible with anyone who takes the time to dig into the background to find out more.

(Unfortunately most people may not take the time, and we may end up with a different result from that which logic should dictate on 23 June)

You have lost your argument. And the reason. You have in the interests of self ( I suspect ) ignored the issues that affect grass roots people. Your argument has been about what might happen, which even if it is strong, it's conjecture. You have conveniently ignored the realities of peoples lives, and I believe that is because you are ignorant to what is really happening in vast parts of the country. People like Yvette Cooper are more than willing to shed crocodile tears when pleading for us to take in refugees and yet refuse to recognise the torture caused to some of our underprivileged population through uncontrolled immigration.
When people like Charity worker David Milliband advise us to stay in Europe , It's easy for us to overlook the fact he gets a salary of £400,000 per year for his "charitable work" . These people put self interest ahead of the real issue that affects the underprivileged of our country .

 

[websaway]

I would imagine the figure is zero, because that's part of the concession package that Cameron won that will come into place after a Remain vote. In other words, it's not active yet, but a Remain vote will activate it.

(Obviously Cameron won't get any of the things he negotiated if the UK chooses Leave, because they won't be relevant anyway.)

And that will be a lawyers banquet.

 

[Edwin]

Rising birth rate > As far as I know, there is actually a declining birth rate. Though I seem to remember hearing that immigrant birth rates are higher than UK nationals at some point in this campaign. I can't seem to find a source for that, but here's two on the declining birth rate:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat.../birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2015-07-15
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28330429

From the first document you linked to:

This fall represents a change to the increasing numbers of births that had been reported each year from 2001 to 2012, with the exception of a 0.3% fall in 2009. Between 2001 and 2012 the number of live births increased by 23%.

That 23% are coming of age for nursery and school places (and then later on, university places or the jobs market). The birthrate has dropped off in the last couple of years, but the effects of that mini baby boom are going to be rippling through public services for the foreseeable future (100+ years in many cases, since the number of centenarians is predicted to rise sharply and keep on rising).

 

[AssetDomains]

Yes, I totally agree, and all the educated, open minded, integrated immigrants that come to this country are doing a brilliant job.
You do know that these people will not be made to leave if we vote to leave the EU?... and with controlled immigration we can continue to welcome these important migrants that thankfully choose the UK to practice their skills.

And if more leavers came out with balanced statements like this instead of picking just up on the tiny minority who may be 'Criminals, Zealots Scroungers' or terrorists then it would be much easier for me the son of an immigrant and other liberal minded to engage with your camp. Contrary to how a may have come across I have real concerns about remaining because of the erosion of are laws and sovereignty and may actually leave. It just makes my blood boil when people like Boris blame all that's wrong on this country on migrants despite the years of austerity he's supported and supposedly sensibly minded people buy into and perpetuate the myth that immigration controlled or uncontrolled is the real reason some public services are in a mess.

 

[martin-s]

Apparently immigration is estimated to contribute 60% of population growth from 2012 2037. Though that's based on annual figures of 165,000 which is massively lower than the current rate.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/345

And here's a report that says 26.5% of babies are born to mothers not originally from the UK. Given how small a section of society they represent, that would imply a significantly higher birth rate. Poland is part of the headline, but so are Indian and Pakistan - two countries who have long traditions of settling here.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...rentscountryofbirthenglandandwales/2014-08-28

Just to be clear, this is a response to immigration not being a factor in population growth and therefore pressure on services. I do believe in (controlled) immigration and the value it has for our economy and our culture.

 

[Edwin]

It just makes my blood boil when people like Boris blame all that's wrong on this country on migrants despite the years of austerity he's supported and supposedly sensibly minded people buy into and perpetuate the myth that immigration controlled or uncontrolled is the real reason some public services are in a mess.

THAT! That's exactly how I feel too. Every debate I watch just makes me feel more angry (note to self: perhaps I should stop watching them)