EU Referendum

[denchomsky]

Convicted criminals can be refused entry. Migrants can't claim benefits for 3 months and with changes have to leave if there not working within 6

It's all very well saying that, but once they are here it is very difficult to remove them. What are the figures of migrants that have been removed because they have failed to find work after 6 months? What are the figures of EU criminals being deported that have slipped through the very loose net at immigration control and committed crimes in the UK?
What are the figures of migrants that have completely disappeared because they failed to register with the correct authorities once they are here?

 

[AssetDomains]

The problem can actually be that they are too hard working. This for me is about the fact that an unknown amount and unknown people can simply walk into our country any time they like, that defies all logic for numerous reasons. .

And I'm not saying there aren't logical discussions to be had about just discus in a balanced way don't tar the migrant population with the same brush as the 50 immigrants who need to rightly be kicked out because there criminals as you said the numbers are large 50 in the grand scheme is a very small number its also fairly small in comparison to the 6000 that have been kicked out (funny every leaver would tell you we have Zero control but 6000 were booted out). A population 2/3 the Newcastle figure you gave work dam hard in the NHS, some in your camp whilst maligning migrants as scroungers benefits cheats etc could maybe take this into consideration.

The thing is, I love the NHS. When my twins spent a month in SCBU, they were utterly superb. Every single person we met was the same.
But one of the big pressures is population increase. Fact.

Hope your twins are on the mend now one question were any of the staff migrants. should they or any of the other 200,000 who work in the service not have access healthcare and other public services?

Some great stats martin I didn't quote them all for space sake but advances in medicine mean people live longer this also increases the population. This elderly population (who have paid in all there lives and deserve the best care) massively put more strain on the service due to there more complex care needs in comparison to the fit youthful migrants who come to work in the NHS, Care homes, factories agriculture etc.
In terms of direct NHS funding your right it has gone up year on year. The problem is the funding for social care, charities etc has been savaged by austerity so elderly people who are healthy enough to be discharged cant be because the local authorities don't have a care home place available or in home helpers to support them in there own homes. So they cant be discharged they block beds scheduled operations get cancelled people get pissed of with the service we provide.
The needy in terms of those with addiction issues, homelessness, community manageable care conditions. have seen the care they used to receive outside of hospital savaged by austerity cuts to local government budgets. These people then end up in AE because there's nowhere else for them to go.

Borris then comes along implies the problems are all down to migrants and for some reason lots of people buy into it.

So are migrants a small contributing factor to the pressure on the NHS YES they are. 200,000 also help make it tick

 

[martin-s]

What makes you think that you speak for everyone in the UK when you say that immigration is out of control?

Are you honestly saying that immigration is controlled currently?

 

[Edwin]

So long as people continue to dilute very complex problems with a whole host of causes down to a knee-jerk, made-for-slogans "uncontrolled immigration", their argument will NEVER be credible with anyone who takes the time to dig into the background to find out more.

(Unfortunately most people may not take the time, and we may end up with a different result from that which logic should dictate on 23 June)

 

[martin-s]

The correct solution is to Remain and then give the Tories a massive kicking at the next G.E. for failing to stick to their immigration manifesto promises.

They can't stick to the promise because of EU rules. And they can't change EU rules.

But let's kick them anyway, right?

 

[martin-s]

So long as people continue to dilute very complex problems with a whole host of causes down to a knee-jerk, made-for-slogans "uncontrolled immigration", their argument will NEVER be credible with anyone who takes the time to dig into the background to find out more.

You lumping me in with that?

 

[denchomsky]

That's the danger of simplifying the argument by blaming everything on immigration. Which is a point that people tried to make again and again in the debates as well.

Does it therefore follow that all of the UK's ills can be blamed on immigration all of the time? Absolutely NOT.

Of course, it is ridiculous to blame the actual immigrants for the problem, It's the fault of incompetent politicians over the last 10 years that allowed immigration to get out of control. And I think that is the major gripe. It's out of control. This scares people especially with the very real 'Fear' of terrorism.

If the Leave camp were willing to acknowledge the reality of the above and nuance their argument, I think their other arguments might be more persuasive. But so long as they persist in the myth, the corrosive lie, that everything stems from (out of control) immigration they're not only impossible to take seriously, they're actively contributing to spreading their own brand of fear.

Much like the remain are doing with their negative, doomsday 'speculation' about the economy.

 

[Edwin]

Are you honestly saying that immigration is controlled currently?

No. I am honestly saying that uncontrolled immigration is not the root cause of most of the problems many in the Leave camp ascribe to it.

So long as they persist in promoting that fallacy, it's impossible to take the rest of their arguments seriously.

 

[AssetDomains]

I'm not saying don't discuss it I'm aware migration puts more pressure other services should be debated but when discussing it lets do so with a bit of balance and not make out all migrants are free loading criminals who have no benefit at all to are society

 

[Edwin]

What are the figures of migrants that have been removed because they have failed to find work after 6 months?

I would imagine the figure is zero, because that's part of the concession package that Cameron won that will come into place after a Remain vote. In other words, it's not active yet, but a Remain vote will activate it.

(Obviously Cameron won't get any of the things he negotiated if the UK chooses Leave, because they won't be relevant anyway.)

 

[signature]

Actually my closest neighbours and a few other on the street are indian/Pakistani, and they are all very nice as far as I can tell.

I have absolutely no problem with controlled immigration from any part of the world, but I do have a problem with uncontrolled immigration.

This is the exact answer I expect to get, the immigrants friends and neighbours are usually nice and okay, it's always the other immigrant we don't see that's the issue.

If the ones on your street are nice why don't you have that image when you describe immigrants instead of criminals, zealous and scroungers.

I don't think anybody on this discussion have issues with controlled immigration, you need to stop using that kind of tone to describe a set of people because there happen to be few bad apples.

There are over 3M EU nationals in the UK, about 1% are on in work benefits, I can't see that makes most immigrant to be scroungers.

Yes, immigrants are hard working, so are British citizen, the difference is immigrants are more desperate since most have no immediate family member to turn to when they arrive here, hence they do any job for minimum wage or zero hour contracts.

Stick to the debate of uncontrolled immigration(valid point) and stop calling immigrants all the bad names you can think of.

 

[denchomsky]

So long as people continue to dilute very complex problems with a whole host of causes down to a knee-jerk, made-for-slogans "uncontrolled immigration", their argument will NEVER be credible with anyone who takes the time to dig into the background to find out more.

(Unfortunately most people may not take the time, and we may end up with a different result from that which logic should dictate on 23 June)

When thousands of people are dying trying to enter the EU, net migrations figures are rising year on year, the government are cutting spending on social care, health, emergency services, policing, there is a lack of school places and teachers, at what point would you say it is out of control? when people are having pitched battles on the streets, and public services collapse?

I know this is not the fault of the immigrants, but blame is irrelevant. Immigration is out of control

 

[Edwin]

The really disgusting aspect of the referendum campaign on the Leave side is to see politicians like Johnson and Gove, who are from the party that is at the root of so many cutbacks and austerity drives that there are huge holes in public service pin things on immigrants.

It's a very very astute weasel tactic from them, because if Leave win they're likely to be in (and/or leading) the Tories in charge of the country, and suddenly the fangs have been pulled from the "too much austerity" argument that has dogged the government for the last six years.

They will be able to whatever they like while hiding behind the shield that it was necessary because of "immigration".

Make no mistake. They may not be principled, but Boris and his Leave group are not "stupid" people. You can be 100.00% sure that they understand the nuances of the situation. And they've chosen to ignore the real problem (their own party's policies) and given the angry populace a windmill to tilt at (immigration).

 

[denchomsky]

This is the exact answer I expect to get, the immigrants friends and neighbours are usually nice and okay, it's always the other immigrant we don't see that's the issue.

If the ones on your street are nice why don't you have that image when you describe immigrants instead of criminals, zealous and scroungers.

I don't think anybody on this discussion have issues with controlled immigration, you need to stop using that kind of tone to describe a set of people because there happen to be few bad apples.

There are over 3M EU nationals in the UK, about 1% are on in work benefits, I can't see that makes most immigrant to be scroungers.

Yes, immigrants are hard working, so are British citizen, the difference is immigrants are more desperate since most have no immediate family member to turn to when they arrive here, hence they do any job for minimum wage or zero hour contracts.

Stick to the debate of uncontrolled immigration(valid point) and stop calling immigrants all the bad names you can think of.

Just because criminals, zealots and scroungers don't live on my street doesn't mean they don't exist.
Your reply is exactly what I expected also, if you mention immigration is a problem you must be stupid and secretly racist.
Get off your moral high horse and stop patronising people because they have a different opinion to yours.

 

[websaway]

Bravo! You're spot on. But the way to do that is at the next General Election, not during the referendum which, no matter how emotive it may feel, is NOT simplistically a referendum on how the current lot in power are doing on one issue out of many, but far far more important and more long-term a decision than that, taking in a vast range of issues.

The correct solution is to Remain and then give the Tories a massive kicking at the next G.E. for failing to stick to their immigration manifesto promises. I would have thought that will be pretty easy (assuming Remain prevails) since there will be a lot of Leave-leaning voters ready to put the boot in, and UKIP won't have got their way and therefore won't have been rendered irrelevant.

Remember, regardless of how you vote in the referendum, it will either be Tories or other Tories in charge of the country for the next 4 years. The result of the vote on 23 June won't change that. Farage will go back to vote-dodging in the European parliament, the small handful of Leave politicians from non-Tory parties will slink quietly back to Westminster, and the Tories will continue to form the government.

But surely the crux of the matter is that it's fast becoming irrelevant who we elect in 4 years because our laws and policies are not being made in Westminster but are being made in Brussels. You can not even have an immigration policy if you have uncontrolled free movement of people.
I don't share your view on the remain vote. I think the momentum is moving towards leave as ordinary people become aware that it is not racist to control immigration, and a leave vote will go someway to curing a problem that affects millions of underprivileged people. Though the problem won't be obvious in Cambridge. Or to anyone who has a privileged life.

 

[martin-s]

No. I am honestly saying that uncontrolled immigration is not the root cause of most of the problems many in the Leave camp ascribe to it.

So long as they persist in promoting that fallacy, it's impossible to take the rest of their arguments seriously.

Immigration isn't the only cause of most of the bigger issues, I completely agree. But the recent influx is an issue - and more controllable immigration is needed to improve the situation.

But that's impossible while in the EU.

And the reality is that when Albania and Slovakia and Turkey (if/when) join, the same influx is likely to be repeated.

I've employed EU nationals in my company, as have other members in my family. One of the most interesting things is how much money they send back to their home country - to their wife and kids if they didn't bring them, or to their parents if not. Even a small amount makes a huge difference to their families. I've worked with non-EU nationals in the past too - and the story was the same.

People come here for the higher wages. If you have limitless (is that a less offensive term than "uncontrolled"?) immigration with less well-off nations, you have to expect it.

 

[Edwin]

I know this is not the fault of the immigrants, but blame is irrelevant.

When you say "fault", do you mean "they can't help it"? Or do you mean "they're not the cause of it"?

 

[martin-s]

The really disgusting aspect of the referendum campaign on the Leave side is to see politicians like Johnson and Gove, who are from the party that is at the root of so many cutbacks and austerity drives that there are huge holes in public service pin things on immigrants.

You can't keep spending money you don't have Edwin. Austerity may not be very nice, but I can understand why it's necessary.

 

[websaway]

The really disgusting aspect of the referendum campaign on the Leave side is to see politicians like Johnson and Gove, who are from the party that is at the root of so many cutbacks and austerity drives that there are huge holes in public service pin things on immigrants.

It's a very very astute weasel tactic from them, because if Leave win they're likely to be in (and/or leading) the Tories in charge of the country, and suddenly the fangs have been pulled from the "too much austerity" argument that has dogged the government for the last six years.

They will be able to whatever they like while hiding behind the shield that it was necessary because of "immigration".

Make no mistake. They may not be principled, but Boris and his Leave group are not "stupid" people. You can be 100.00% sure that they understand the nuances of the situation. And they've chosen to ignore the real problem (their own party's policies) and given the angry populace a windmill to tilt at (immigration).

Now you are looking at the politics instead of focusing on the key issues of Immigration and national sovereignty. There are people who want to be, Europe not England, and there are people who want to be England, and not simply a state of Europe with all the stripping of sovereignty and dilution of culture that that entails. It's normally the stuff that revolutions are made of.

 

[denchomsky]

Stick to the debate of uncontrolled immigration(valid point) and stop calling immigrants all the bad names you can think of.

Did you actually read the post where my original comment spawned?...or did you just jump on the 'Criminals, Zealots and Scroungers' part and presume that I labelled all immigrants as one of these?