EU Referendum

[websaway]

It's not just economists. It's NHS professionals, trades unions leaders, politicians, academics, etc. etc. The list I linked to is vast.

How can you call these experts on the issue of EU membership. They may well ( questionably ) be experts in their own field and each has their own interests furthermost in their objectives. Why have we not heard the trade unions, most of whom wanted to join with the communist bloc in the 70's, give there views on English sovereignty.
Trying to get blocks of people, NHS employees, Car workers, Students, etc to vote remain may well have been the remain campaign shooting themselves in the foot. Some of these organisations have even sent out directives in writing telling people they should vote remain. But people see what's happening around them and they don't like these organisations conveniently ignoring the things that long term affect them most. Immigration and sovereignty. They may well turn around and say P*ss off and don't tell me what to do.
If you vote out you may well lose your job, if you vote in, you will lose your democracy, your liberty, your sovereignty, and their is no guarantee that you will not lose your job to the millions who may be competing with you for it over the coming years.

 

[denchomsky]

Of course immigration alone isn't a justification. For me the decision to vote leave is based on:

• Regaining control of sovereignty on a number of issues
• Avoiding further erosion of sovereignty (death by a thousand cuts)
• A belief that European countries, cultures and economies are too different to become an EU superstate. And that the EU is already failing by trying.
• A belief that the Euro continues to be in serious trouble.
• A belief that the pace of immigration is too fast for us to keep up with currently - and could get worse
• Recognition that the UK cannot change the EU direction through negotiation alone. If it is to change, it is going to require a shock to the system.
• An innate sense that I am British (not English, because actually I'm Welsh, just don't tell anyone) rather than European
• Distrust and a personal disconnect with the MEP system
• Shock at the lack of audited acceptance of the EU budget - and how much MEPs cost
• Faith that we are a big, proud and resourceful country, capable of making our own way in the world.
• Probably some other stuff

Ditto, except for the Welsh bit

 

[websaway]

Here's the information about immigration and crime in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#United_Kingdom

A few takeaways:
"In total, foreigners represented 13% of the prison population, whereas foreign nationals are 13% of the total population in England and Wales."

"Research has found no evidence of an average causal impact of immigration on crime."

"A 2008 study found that the crime rate of Eastern European immigrants was the same as that of the indigenous population."

If you Google around the topic, it's interesting to see that the newspapers that are traditionally "anti immigration" are delighted to use the numeric rise in immigrant crime levels as a splashy headline, without pointing out that it's no greater than the rise in immigrant numbers or that immigrants are just as likely/unlikely to be criminals as Brits.

Are you from another common sense planet . We are obliged to accommodate the 13% of our indigenous population at Her majesties pleasure at a cost of £100,000 per year for each one. We really don't want to import the 13% of someone else's criminals. This figure should really be 0%.

 

[AssetDomains]

oh yes, be my guest... if only there were away to sort them from the convicted criminals, zealots and scroungers??....mmm..oh we can't because anyone can come in.

You obviously choose to pick up on specific parts of posts to suit your repost, READ THE ORIGINAL POST where I used these terms, I did not once say that all migrants fall under these categories. Then maybe read some other posts after that I have commented on, you sound exactly like a ranting foaming politician passing judgement and twisting headlines to suit your agenda.

I picked up on what you said in the first post above I hadn't seen anything positive about migration before then if you did I apologise
But can you and other leavers see how to liberals like myself who think leave have some good points on law and democracy
can be put of with comments such a good reason to leave is because there's no way " to sort them from the convicted criminals, zealots and scroungers??...." ,"if we don't white people will become a minority"(I know you didn't say this other leavers have just trying to make a point)
Compared to "we should leave because then we get full control of our borders that's a good thing because some areas of the country are feeling real strain on public services" both pretty much say we have to take control of migration the later just doesn't make people like me question if they have views like the above do I really want to be associating with their point of view.
Leavers you have the isolationists on board already they are voting out there's no need to bring everything back to immigration especially if your going to use shakey facts or divisive statements when doing so

 

[AssetDomains]

Of course immigration alone isn't a justification. For me the decision to vote leave is based on:

• Regaining control of sovereignty on a number of issues
• Avoiding further erosion of sovereignty (death by a thousand cuts)
• A belief that European countries, cultures and economies are too different to become an EU superstate. And that the EU is already failing by trying.
• A belief that the Euro continues to be in serious trouble.
• A belief that the pace of immigration is too fast for us to keep up with currently - and could get worse
• Recognition that the UK cannot change the EU direction through negotiation alone. If it is to change, it is going to require a shock to the system.
• An innate sense that I am British (not English, because actually I'm Welsh, just don't tell anyone) rather than European
• Distrust and a personal disconnect with the MEP system
• Shock at the lack of audited acceptance of the EU budget - and how much MEPs cost
• Faith that we are a big, proud and resourceful country, capable of making our own way in the world.
• Probably some other stuff

All massive valid strong arguments Leavers shout loud and proud about these equally and you will pull liberals to your side of the table. Or keep shouting loudest about Boris and Nigel's mistruths on migration and drive us away from your argument

 

[bonusmedia]

Are you from another common sense planet . We are obliged to accommodate the 13% of our indigenous population at Her majesties pleasure at a cost of £100,000 per year for each one. We really don't want to import the 13% of someone else's criminals. This figure should really be 0%.

I think we should ban crime. Problem solved.

 

[BREWSTERS]

It doesn't get mentioned often enough that MPs from across the political spectrum are in favour of staying by a ratio of over 3-to-1 (463 to 147), as are 17 out of 22 members of the cabinet.

But because the law requires the mainstream media (especially but not exclusively the BBC) to give equal amounts of coverage to both sides, it's easy to think that translates into an equal weight of support for both views.

I'm amazed that the number of MP's for remain isn't higher....asking MP's to vote against bureaucracy is like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. The fact a quarter are voting against it speaks volumes - out of any group you could mention, they are the most likely to vote remain.

 

[Edwin]

I have never seen a coherent, reasoned fact-based argument** setting out how the UK can cement the necessary trade deals with the EU after Brexit without accepting freedom of movement as part of the deal. There is no evidence whatsoever the EU would countenance that deal.

(**"We're big so they'll have to do what we want." doesn't qualify)

And if that's the case, then Leave provides no more control on immigration than Remain.

 

[martin-s]

I have never seen a coherent, reasoned fact-based argument setting out how the UK can cement the necessary trade deals with the EU after Brexit without accepting freedom of movement as part of the deal.

They need and want to trade with us Edwin. Where there's a need and a want, there's a way.

 

[Edwin]

I'm amazed that the number of MP's for remain isn't higher....asking MP's to vote against bureaucracy is like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. The fact a quarter are voting against it speaks volumes - out of any group you could mention, they are the most likely to vote remain.

Frank Field (one of the few Labour Leave supporters) warned a few hours ago that the Labour party is likely to lose a million votes because of its Remain stance.

If that's true, doesn't that show their official position is against their own self-interest, not in line with it?

 

[websaway]

I have never seen a coherent, reasoned fact-based argument** setting out how the UK can cement the necessary trade deals with the EU after Brexit without accepting freedom of movement as part of the deal. There is no evidence whatsoever the EU would countenance that deal.

(**"We're big so they'll have to do what we want." doesn't qualify)

And if that's the case, then Leave provides no more control on immigration than Remain.

You mean Germany will insist we open our borders or they will not sell us their cars.

 

[Edwin]

You mean Germany will insist we open our borders or they will not sell us their cars.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ss-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

 

[websaway]

Frank Field (one of the few Labour Leave supporters) warned a few hours ago that the Labour party is likely to lose a million votes because of its Remain stance.

If that's true, doesn't that show their official position is against their own self-interest, not in line with it?

Old labour are not remain, they just find themselves between a rock and a hard place. I've heard skinners gone over.
I think politicians generally will hope memories are short, because with the obvious exception of Farage , their personal pre referendum credibility is in shreds.

 

[martin-s]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ss-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

See the bits where he mentions Europe would have to start doing things differently after Brexit? That's the drum I'm banging.

 

[Edwin]

See the bits where he mentions Europe would have to start doing things differently after Brexit? That's the drum I'm banging.

Even if they do, the UK will be out and therefore not a beneficiary of their reforms.

 

[websaway]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ss-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

This is where you fall down. You try to prove your argument, instead of looking at common sense. We have one German politician, who clearly wants us to remain saying something that proves nothing. Doesn't he need to please his voters, are his voters not the people who make German cars. If he did weald so much power, would we really want to cosy up to him.

 

[websaway]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ss-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

Does this guy totally represent the country that tried to unsuccessfully invade us some years back. The country that invited an uncapped number of economic migrants from the middle east and Africa just last summer. The country that has created turmoil in Europe. Oh well I suggest we stand by our beds and listen to him.

 

[Edwin]

Does this guy totally represent the country that tried to unsuccessfully invade us some years back. The country that invited an uncapped number of economic migrants from the middle east and Africa just last summer. The country that has created turmoil in Europe. Oh well I suggest we stand by our beds and listen to him.

Oh, really? You're going to use the "don't mention the war" line of reasoning to rubbish the comments of Germany's equivalent of George Osborne?

Distasteful. Disgraceful.

I have no idea how you expect a debate to continue, on any level, when resorting to shots of such cheapness.

 

[gimpydog]

I am sure the immigrants population in prison is probably 5% of the prison population..

Unfortunately not. It was nearly 13% in 2013. That's "foreign nationals", so doesn't include dual-nationality etc.

At 30 June 2013 there were 10,786 foreign nationals in prisons in England and Wales from 160 different countries. Nine of these countries accounted for one-half of the foreign nationals in prisons. Poland, Jamaica and the Irish Republic are the countries with the most nationals in prison establishments.

At the end of March 2013 the prison population was 83,842

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04334.pdf

 

[Edwin]

Unfortunately not. It was nearly 13% in 2013. That's "foreign nationals", so doesn't include dual-nationality etc.

As I posted already, that's exactly equal to the % of foreign nationals in Britain. In other words, immigrants are just as law abiding/criminal as UK citizens, no more, no less.