EU Referendum

[Bailey]

The ratio in the Scottish referendum was 55% to 45%. Here it's 71% to 29% (with the "undecideds" out of the picture). So that can't be the whole explanation.

Lets remember, one figure quoted above is an 'Outcome' the other just a 'Prediction' . Prior to the Scottish Referendum The Surveys were mostly calling either too Close to Call or for Independence, hence the Scottish Nationalists shock at the outcome . I agree most of the Surveys are painting a similar picture - But the same can be said of the Scottish referendum.

 

[websaway]

The ratio in the Scottish referendum was 55% to 45%. Here it's 71% to 29% (with the "undecideds" out of the picture). So that can't be the whole explanation.

I leave the stats to you as I know you like stats more than reality.
I also suspect, don't know what gives me the feeling, that you spend too much time with young people.

 

[Edwin]

I leave the stats to you as I know you like stats more than reality.
I also suspect, don't know what gives me the feeling, that you spend too much time with young people.

Debate the issue. Or stop. But such personal attacks have no place in this thread.

 

[websaway]

Debate the issue. Or stop. But such personal attacks have no place in this thread.

Debate the issue. Or stop. But such personal attacks have no place in this thread.

Well the issue is that our freedom, because of immigration and the free movement of people is being threatened and you skate around the periphery quoting statistics which you conveniently pluck out to bolster your own arguments, arguments which young academics with little experience of life will buy into.
There is a suggestion that the Euro's could be played behind closed doors as a result of Islamic backed extremist threats. So you want to debate the issue, lets forget about EU funding for science and universities or whatever other self interest motives you have for garnishing support for the remain campaign, and lets talk about the real issues of Liberty and Freedom being lost through the unfettered free movement of people.

And what we are seeing now is the tip of an enormous iceberg.

 

[websaway]

Vice President Lyndon Johnson received the following message from a Native American Indian Chief on a reservation:
"Be careful with your immigration laws. We were careless with ours.

 

[AlistairM]

Interesting debate from Dover on BBC radio 5 live at the moment.

 

[Toonz]

I'm not amused when people call me racist for detesting ISIS.

Who calls you racist for detesting ISIS? What specifically did you say, and what specifically did they say?

 

[Edwin]

Interesting debate from Dover on BBC radio 5 live at the moment.

It started off well, but everything's got a bit testy. A pity, since there were a lot of "real people" giving views for both sides, as opposed to experts and career politicians.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Imagine for a moment that a tiny group of people in say, Hastings, were in charge of the local decisions of Carlisle. When shops could open; planning permissions; town parking regs; social services; local by-laws; who you could trade with, etc. This group in Hastings has never been to Carlisle. No one ever elected them into power, not least the people of Carlisle. The people of Carlisle also need to send a sizeable portion of their income to the Hastings group...who never get audited, and never have to account for that money.
If you were from or lived in Carlisle, would you be happy about that?

I haven't seen any argument to remain that holds water...

 

[RobM]

It seems the remain camp never want to mention the unelected people who pass laws that can't be changed, questioned, debated etc.

 

[gimpydog]

Watch carefully & you can see Osbo's lip starting to curl

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[Adam H]

This is an interesting read

 

[Edwin]

"What is the European Union?" - a handy explainer
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/what-is-the-european-union

 

[RobM]

'People complain it is not elected - but then neither is the British civil service.'

No and neither is the local postman or milkman. They, like the British civil service, don't *propose* laws. Nice attempt there.

 

[gimpydog]

This is an interesting read

View attachment 1173

Guess they won't be popping round for nibbles & drinkies this weekend

 

[Brassneck]

'People complain it is not elected - but then neither is the British civil service.'

No and neither is the local postman or milkman. They, like the British civil service, don't *propose* laws. Nice attempt there.

The civil service do propose and work up policy options though. Commission proposals still have to be voted on by the council of ministers and the European Parliament. There are plenty of opportunities for member states to object to elements and to negotiate amendments or opt outs.

 

[Edwin]

Here's something from the BBC live feed...

Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers also rejects warnings there would have to be border checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. She says the common travel area existed for decades before the UK joined the EU and said it would continue to exist if the UK voted to leave. She said it had survived a civil war, a world war, and 30 years of the Troubles.

"There is absolutely no reason why it can't survive a Brexit vote."

Her statement is misleading on a number of levels.
1) The problem is not solely the common travel area between the UK and Ireland, it's also the freedom of movement area between Ireland and all other EU states (since anyone wanting to get into the UK can go via Ireland->N.I.->Rest of UK without being subject to the same level of scrutiny as they would face coming through a port/airport in mainland UK) The two issues go hand in hand, and can't be separated. Unless Ireland gives up its own freedom of movement, the flow I just described will remain open to people.

2) The old free movement areas pre-EU were much, much smaller than they are now, encompassing fewer countries, so for example there was no route such as the ones the refugees are taking now that passed solely through "free movement" countries back in those days. In other words, the world has changed too much in the interim for her throw-back to the past to be meaningful as a comparison.

If you're in favour of Leave, how would you see the Ireland/Northern Ireland border problem resolved? Do you feel that re-establishing border posts there is a worthwhile price to pay?

(BTW, what I posted above about a possible route for people to get into the UK is factual based on the current situation, not simply my opinion. There's no border check between Ireland and Northern Ireland. There's also no requirement to have a passport for travel between Northern Ireland and mainland UK, and a quick Google shows that no more than occasional spot checks of photo ID are conducted for ferries arriving from N.I. Please do your own research if you have any doubts about this - everything can be confirmed in under 5 minutes.)

 

[martin-s]

It's an interesting question Edwin. I guess there are ways of policing borders without border control - flight manifests, etc.

Setting up border controls between Ireland and NI, might open a lot of tender wounds.

Likewise border controls between NI and the rest of the UK would be a delicate subject.

 

[Skinner]

That Villars woman is a plank, she's the one who paraphrased said "this manifesto is just to get elected, the next one will change our stance on the immigration limits". It were on news night I think, when pressed over the 100,000 limit on immigrants.

Has anyone seen this thing about asking the tories (as the current gov) if they would protect workers rights or reduce them (during brexit nego)? a petition were apparently delivered asking for answers. I only caught a the last few seconds and I've only just got home. So I haven't searched yet.

 

[Edwin]

Has anyone seen this thing about asking the tories (as the current gov) if they would protect workers rights or reduce them (during brexit nego)? a petition were apparently delivered asking for answers. I only caught a the last few seconds and I've only just got home. So I haven't searched yet.

There's this petition with over 40,000 signatures...
http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/inforbritain/petition

The creation of the petition was fairly widely reported a few days ago. I'm not sure it's been officially presented to Leave though (it was aimed at the "Leave" camp, not specifically the Tories)