EU Referendum

[Edwin]

In short, whatever happens come June 24th, there will be a LOT of moaning and cries of foul play.

I think you're right, though it will also be a factor of the margin of the winning side. If it's a strong win by one camp or the other, that kind of blunts the fangs of the "losing" contingent. But if it's really close, then the acrimony may run and run...

 

[websaway]

Has anyone thought of fixing their mortgage against the possibility of an interest rate hike post-vote? (Osborne suggested that the Bank of England might have to counter rising inflation through the interest rate mechanism in the case of a recession) There seem to be a number of 5-year fixes out there under 2.5%, according to https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/mortgages/best-buys/ - and even a 10-year fix is under 3%!

That suggests that not many agree with him then.

 

[Toonz]

Did anyone just watch Andrew Neil and George Osborne on BBC1?

Yes I saw it. Not sure I'd agree with you about Farage, but Neil is an absolutely first class interviewer who really does his research and often appears to be more knowledgable than the cabinet members he's grilling.

Osborne simply didn't have an answer (and I don't think any of the Remain side have a convincing answer) as to why, if the consequences of leaving would be so awful, did Cameron ever agree to the referendum in the first place.

Osborne's "I think it's important we give the British people their say" and non-Tories' "it was just a sop to the UKIP arm of his party" don't really cut it because if the consequences of Brexit are set to be half as bad as Cameron and Osborne describe, they would (or should) never have offered the vote in the first place.

Also I'm struggling with the whole reform thing - that's another reason edging me towards leave. I still don't see how we can possibly reform the EU in our favour. All this talk from the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas (and I admire both of them) about building progressive alliances is just not realistic in my view. If it was feasible, I'd be more sure about remaining.

What pi55es me off is that I'm about as far from being an anti-immigrant right winger as it's possible to be, so it feels like I'm having to make some uncomfortable bedfellows with this one.

 

[Toonz]

Btw, Edwin - you're putting an admirable case for Remain, my friend. (You may yet win me over. )

 

[Edwin]

Btw, Edwin - you're putting an admirable case for Remain, my friend. (You may yet win me over. )

Thanks. The most useful "compact" summary I can find is still "116 Reasons to Vote IN" (lots of links to sources to underpin the various bullet points)
http://www.cambridgeforeurope.co.uk/2016/03/30/116-reasons-to-vote-in/

Perhaps read in tandem with this tongue-in-cheek effort "35 Reasons to Vote #Leave"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/johnny-rich/35-reasons-to-vote-leave_b_10322446.html

 

[Toonz]

Thanks. The most useful "compact" summary I can find is still "116 Reasons to Vote IN" (lots of links to sources to underpin the various bullet points)
http://www.cambridgeforeurope.co.uk/2016/03/30/116-reasons-to-vote-in/

Perhaps read in tandem with this tongue-in-cheek effort "35 Reasons to Vote #Leave"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/johnny-rich/35-reasons-to-vote-leave_b_10322446.html

Will check them both out

 

[websaway]

Have the remains got any more arrows to fire ? The economic prediction argument seems like a broken record The argument of immigration is something people have lived with every day for years. I also think ordinary people understand the value of freedom and the right to determine our own laws. I think the remain camp know that the older wiser and more experienced generation are overwhelmingly leavers. Is it possible to educate young people on the value of sovereignty and self determination.

 

[Toonz]

Websaway, do you have any reservations about Brexit? Any at all?

 

[Toonz]

Another difficulty about EU reform is that different countries have different ideas of what reform is needed. Hell, even different people within each country have different ideas of what's needed, sometimes completely contradictory - e.g. less regulation vs more regulation. So the very idea that a single body of this size can be all things to all people is unrealistic and, ultimately, undemocratic.

Damn, I'm feeling Brexitish tonight

 

[Brassneck]

I got amazing odds when I placed my bet a few years ago, it were a 2 part bet. I'm getting a bit of the rabbits nose now as the cash out is quite a few times my stake

have you put money on it ?

No I didn't, but probably too late now as odds continue to shorten to 3/10 overnight. Not really in line with the polls but clearly some confidence from those willing to put money down.

 

[websaway]

Websaway, do you have any reservations about Brexit? Any at all?

None that even remotely compare to the reservations I have for going along with the EU plan. By the way Cameron called Farage a little Englander if he had have called anybody a little any other country it would have been deemed racist. For me little Englander has become a compliment. Wales are proud of their country Scotland are proud of theirs Ireland are obsessed we theirs. If we portray ourselves as being proud of our country ( England) we are deemed racist. I actually feel we may have passed the tipping point where we have lost our identity.

 

[Edwin]

One of the sad things about this debate is that the people who will potentially be hurt most are the young folk since they will live with the consequences far longer than any other age group. Support for "Remain" is at 73% in the 18-29 age range, and 62% in the 30-39 range. It then drops below 50% for older age groups (48% for 40-49 year olds, all the way down to 37% for those aged 60+)

I'm not suggesting that the young vote should count more than anyone else's vote - that would be ridiculous - but I think it's worth taking a few moments just to think about the trend...

And maybe next time you hear a Remain campaigner say "vote to stay for the children and grandchildren" - even if you don't believe their position on the arguments themselves is remotely credible - it does at least reflect voting intent.

 

[BREWSTERS]

As we're currently in the EU, our law is secondary to EU law. Those laws cannot be amended or repealed by anyone but the (unelected) 28 EU Commissioners. MEP's have zero power or influence.
Current talk about securing the NHS currently isn't a choice we UK tax payers can decide. Areas of the NHS have been passed to private companies (mostly American) for nearly 20 years now...it's going, bit by bit, and there's nothing we can do (unless we become independent of the EU). Politicians saying they will save the NHS is a joke...it isn't their choice. When the EU agrees to TTIP - which they will despite the posturing - that's game over for the NHS (plus education etc).
TTIP is being decided on by...you guessed it - the EU Commission - IN SECRET. Check out this short vid by MEP Luke Flannigan about just how secretive it is...this guy is an elected MEP, and it shows just how little power they have.

 

[Edwin]

None that even remotely compare to the reservations I have for going along with the EU plan. By the way Cameron called Farage a little Englander if he had have called anybody a little any other country it would have been deemed racist. For me little Englander has become a compliment. Wales are proud of their country Scotland are proud of theirs Ireland are obsessed we theirs. If we portray ourselves as being proud of our country ( England) we are deemed racist. I actually feel we may have passed the tipping point where we have lost our identity.

There's a difference between being proud of one's country and being isolationist.

For instance, I agree with you completely that the Scottish are rightly proud of Scotland. But the voting intent in Scotland is overwhelmingly in favour of Remain (51% to 21%, the remainder undecided) so the two views are not incompatible - nor are they opposite sides of the same coin!

It would have been better for the quality of the debate if Cameron hadn't resorted to the "little Englander" cheap shot. Better to use a few more words to make a nuanced attack. Unfortunately when each reply is "on the clock" he took a shortcut...

 

[websaway]

There's a difference between being proud of one's country and being isolationist.

For instance, I agree with you completely that the Scottish are rightly proud of Scotland. But the voting intent in Scotland is overwhelmingly in favour of Remain (51% to 21%, the remainder undecided) so the two views are not incompatible - nor are they opposite sides of the same coin!

It would have been better for the quality of the debate if Cameron hadn't resorted to the "little Englander" cheap shot. Better to use a few more words to make a nuanced attack. Unfortunately when each reply is "on the clock" he took a shortcut...

Isolationist. You mean like America, China, Australia, Canada.
Oh yes I see.

 

[martin-s]

To be clear, there is nothing isolationist about wanting to exit the EU in order to regain control of our sovereignty.

It doesn't mean that you want to stop international trade and partnerships, or completely close borders and become inward looking. It's not racist either, though I'd freely admit that there's likely to be racism in a small section of those voting to leave.

Are Scotland, Wales and NI wrong to want more control of their own government through devolution?

Voting leave just means wanting to exert more of a measure of control on those things.

 

[AlistairM]

One of the sad things about this debate is that the people who will potentially be hurt most are the young folk since they will live with the consequences far longer than any other age group. Support for "Remain" is at 73% in the 18-29 age range, and 62% in the 30-39 range. It then drops below 50% for older age groups (48% for 40-49 year olds, all the way down to 37% for those aged 60+)

I'm not suggesting that the young vote should count more than anyone else's vote - that would be ridiculous - but I think it's worth taking a few moments just to think about the trend...

And maybe next time you hear a Remain campaigner say "vote to stay for the children and grandchildren" - even if you don't believe their position on the arguments themselves is remotely credible - it does at least reflect voting intent.

Maybe there's an argument to the fact that older people who are more likely to vote leave have experienced Britain being both in and out of the EU whereas younger people who are more likely to vote remain have only ever known Britain being in the EU.

 

[websaway]

There's a difference between being proud of one's country and being isolationist.

For instance, I agree with you completely that the Scottish are rightly proud of Scotland. But the voting intent in Scotland is overwhelmingly in favour of Remain (51% to 21%, the remainder undecided) so the two views are not incompatible - nor are they opposite sides of the same coin!

It would have been better for the quality of the debate if Cameron hadn't resorted to the "little Englander" cheap shot. Better to use a few more words to make a nuanced attack. Unfortunately when each reply is "on the clock" he took a shortcut...

Might the remain voters in Scotland be the one's who don't want another referendum. Just a thought.
With Cameron you mean like dehumanising asylum seekers by calling them "swarms of people"

 

[Edwin]

Might the remain voters in Scotland be the one's who don't want another referendum. Just a thought.

The ratio in the Scottish referendum was 55% to 45%. Here it's 71% to 29% (with the "undecideds" out of the picture). So that can't be the whole explanation.

 

[websaway]

When my dad told me he didn't like the Germans and the Japanese in the war , I suggested to him that that was racist. He wasn't amused, as I'm not amused when people call me racist for detesting ISIS.