EU Referendum

[AlistairM]

This referendum campaign is full of surprises. Polly Toynbee has written an article that I agree with (from memory, that's the first time ever!)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/07/brexiters-leave-remain-labour

I stopped reading that as soon as the word "xenophobia" was mentioned.

 

[websaway]

This referendum campaign is full of surprises. Polly Toynbee has written an article that I agree with (from memory, that's the first time ever!)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/07/brexiters-leave-remain-labour

She says she resents scare stories and lies, yet says the pound plummeted, did I miss something, when did the pound plummet.

She also points out the benefits of staying as being The long list of environmental and working rights will chill your marrow. Away go rights for agency workers, waste management, water quality, sex discrimination, nitrate pollution, air quality, asbestos, pesticides, road vehicle testing, food flavouring, farm animal welfare and scores more. Imagine a bonfire of all that?
The mind boggles.

 

[newguy]

-

 

[Edwin]

When you talk of being a minority are you talking about the foreign born population? If so that's about 12-13% I think.

That figure looks spot on. In 2014, 56.2 million people across the UK (87.2 per cent) were White British.
http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/ethnicity-and-religion/

 

[martin-s]

The trouble with financial stories is that they tend to be self-fulfilling.

If you say that the pound is going to struggling, more people are wary of investing and the price drops.

If you say shares in a company are overpriced, more people sell to cut their losses and the price drops.

Commentary is part of the 24-hour news lives that we live nowadays, but predicting the future is a fool's errand.

 

[AssetDomains]

I stopped reading that as soon as the word "xenophobia" was mentioned.

Why because a lot of leavers seem to be just blatantly ignore the facts on the Economy are happy to spout untruths about the NHS and terrorism and bent bananas. From what I can make out there are some leavers who simply want out for xenophobic reasons they would rather given the choice there neighbour not to have a Brown face. Pray to Allah or speak Lithuanian. That's their choice its sad in this day an age but everyone has there own mind so its fine. Please just stop dressing it up with a bunch of crap that we all know isn't true

 

[RobM]

The trouble with financial stories is that they tend to be self-fulfilling.

If you say that the pound is going to struggling, more people are wary of investing and the price drops.

If you say shares in a company are overpriced, more people sell to cut their losses and the price drops.

Commentary is part of the 24-hour news lives that we live nowadays, but predicting the future is a fool's errand.

Not really there is about $5 trillion traded per day on currencies and only a meagre $4 billion on stocks and shares. Saying the pound is struggling or not has zero effect on the strength/weakness of the pound in the global market. The market has already factored in what it thinks.

 

[jasman]

An expert is often someone who is good at passing exams and gets a degree in economics. In the real financial world they don't know their r's from their elbow but certainly know how to explain why they did not really get it wrong after the event.

As someone with a degree in economics I can tell you that some of the fundamental tenets of Economics taught in universities are blatant lies and the Economics lecturers know it. For example the real cause of inflation is covered up in schools and universities. Practically all the inflation is caused by banks creating new money out of thin air under what is known as fractional reserve banking. Each day £billions in mortgages and loans are issued to borrowers. But nearly all that money is not taken from other customers' savings accounts. It it new money that the banks are allowed to create out of thin air and loan at interest. Over the year the vast amount of new money created this way noticeably expands the money supply and dilutes the value of the £ and that is the real cause of inflation and the reason why house prices double on average about every 10 years.

I bumped into one of my former Economics lecturer a few years ago and asked him why we weren't taught about fractional reserve banking, given that it has such a great impact on the economy. He was reluctant to discuss it in detail but said that the establishment has a very long arm.

You've got to be careful when you listen to economists. Most of them are not running hedge funds or other self-financing activities. Most are paid by governments, banks, international entities like the EU, IMF, WTO etc who have an agenda that they are working towards and the economists know very well that if their reports don't support the agenda, they won't be commissioned to write any more.

 

[AlistairM]

For a start I haven't been dressing anything up. In fact I haven't posted very much on this thread because I'm not somebody that participates a great deal on forums, plus the fact my mind is already made up. Still interesting to read through it though and look at links people post. But I'm not going to read something when xenophobia is thrown into the argument straight away as it's just a cop out. Just because the Leave side is giving the "facts" on immigration doesn't mean they are xenophobic (that's what the writer is saying) and doesn't mean I am either.

 

[Bailey]

Probably been mentioned already (I haven't read all the 50+ pages of comments) But, I think you can be Sure this vote will end up with a Similar outcome to the Scottish Independence vote - The Vast Majority of those that wish to Stay, are staying Silent (Why get into a debate that is fraught with speculative argument) When you can just put your tick in the box on the day and be done with it. 56% to stay 44% to leave would be my prediction

 

[Edwin]

For a start I haven't been dressing anything up. In fact I haven't posted very much on this thread because I'm not somebody that participates a great deal on forums, plus the fact my mind is already made up. Still interesting to read through it though and look at links people post. But I'm not going to read something when xenophobia is thrown into the argument straight away as it's just a cop out. Just because the Leave side is giving the "facts" on immigration doesn't mean they are xenophobic (that's what the writer is saying) and doesn't mean I am either.

It's a pity you're unwilling to make your mind up rather than rely on somebody else's poor summary to form your opinion of said piece, since that's not what the writer was saying.

She was talking about elements of the Leave campaign "stirring up xenophobia" (by promoting outright lies on immigration) which is different from claiming that people who vote leave are themselves "xenophobic".

 

[AssetDomains]

For a start I haven't been dressing anything up. In fact I haven't posted very much on this thread because I'm not somebody that participates a great deal on forums, plus the fact my mind is already made up. Still interesting to read through it though and look at links people post. But I'm not going to read something when xenophobia is thrown into the argument straight away as it's just a cop out. Just because the Leave side is giving the "facts" on immigration doesn't mean they are xenophobic (that's what the writer is saying) and doesn't mean I am either.

I didn't say you personally were dressing anything up I said some leavers dress things up with lies the £350 million figure for one and how this will be spent on the NHS LIE the fact is leaving Europe in the short term - medium term will in all likelihood dent the economy slightly. Even if only by the slightest amount this will wipe out the 8billlion per year (more accurate figure) saving gained from leaving the EU.
If leaving dents the economy by more guess what more cuts to public services more pressure on, housing, social services policing etc.
There is an argument to be had on migration a serious one just because you want to talk about it doesn't make you xenophobic of cause it doesn't. So this is aimed at you its to Any I'm 100% out leaver. Give me some hard facts on economic cost migration is having on Britain the NHS, housing teaching policing etc. Then we can have a rational argument about what's the best way to fix these public services under pressure. Maybe easing the pace of austerity is a better solution or maybe it is to cap migration lets talk about it sensibly.
Please (again not aimed at you) just don't tell that if we don't leave the EU then millions ISIS supporters will be here in 5-10 years wearing suicide vests to blow us all up because that's even more unlikely than Cameron's claim that leaving could cause world war 3.

 

[websaway]

It's a pity you're unwilling to make your mind up rather than rely on somebody else's poor summary to form your opinion of said piece, since that's not what the writer was saying.

She was talking about elements of the Leave campaign "stirring up xenophobia" (by promoting outright lies on immigration) which is different from claiming that people who vote leave are themselves "xenophobic".

Which bits are lies ? If you think the majority of people in this country don't have a problem with immigration, if you don't think that communities will not and don't intend integrating into our culture and our way of life, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[websaway]

I didn't say you personally were dressing anything up I said some leavers dress things up with lies the £350 million figure for one and how this will be spent on the NHS LIE the fact is leaving Europe in the short term - medium term will in all likelihood dent the economy slightly. Even if only by the slightest amount this will wipe out the 8billlion per year (more accurate figure) saving gained from leaving the EU.
If leaving dents the economy by more guess what more cuts to public services more pressure on, housing, social services policing etc.
There is an argument to be had on migration a serious one just because you want to talk about it doesn't make you xenophobic of cause it doesn't. So this is aimed at you its to Any I'm 100% out leaver. Give me some hard facts on economic cost migration is having on Britain the NHS, housing teaching policing etc. Then we can have a rational argument about what's the best way to fix these public services under pressure. Maybe easing the pace of austerity is a better solution or maybe it is to cap migration lets talk about it sensibly.
Please (again not aimed at you) just don't tell that if we don't leave the EU then millions ISIS supporters will be here in 5-10 years wearing suicide vests to blow us all up because that's even more unlikely than Cameron's claim that leaving could cause world war 3.

Twin towers
Charlie Hebdo
7/7 etc,etc,etc.
Yes I see your point.
But of course this will be an American or a Colonial problem.

On the economic side of immigration. How can you cost it when you don't know who or how many will come. is it 300,000 per year like last year or is it 500,000 per year or is it 750,000 per year. Are they labourers, doctors, scientists, drug barons, sex traffickers, people smugglers, convicted pheadophiles, engineers, carpenters.?

 

[websaway]

When you talk of being a minority are you talking about the foreign born population? If so that's about 12-13% I think.

And yet we already have a mayor of London who the prime minister was making serious accusations about only three weeks ago.

 

[Brassneck]

56% to stay 44% to leave would be my prediction

I agree. Think it could be 60 / 40 in the end.

 

[Mark84]

Please (again not aimed at you) just don't tell that if we don't leave the EU then millions ISIS supporters will be here in 5-10 years wearing suicide vests to blow us all up because that's even more unlikely than Cameron's claim that leaving could cause world war 3.

No it isn't as unlikely as Cameron's claim of WW3. It is very real, I can't believe that after what happened in Paris that you think that the risk of it happening is a joke claim - it's bloody well already happened on the continent.

Given the freedom of travel, what is this amazing difference between Paris and London which gives you such confidence it's as unlikely as WW3?

 

[Mark84]

When you can just put your tick in the box on the day and be done with it. 56% to stay 44% to leave would be my prediction

I agree. Think it could be 60 / 40 in the end.

Doesn't really matter though does it, there isn't going to be an EU in 5 years so as a pro brexit'er - I'm not at all concerned. Greece is collapsing, France is rioting, Poles and Hungarians aren't doing what the EU masters tell them to do. The rest aren't all that happy.

I can't wait for the far right to take control of the EU, then we'd have a lot of people suddenly saying "we can't change anything - it's undemocratic!.". Only 3 of 5 people need to change views and we would have a right wing EU. It's the five presidents that make the decisions, and nobody can remove them.

As Thomas Moore said, when the devil turns on you - how are you going to stand up right in the wind that blows now all the (laws) democratic protections lay flat!

Good luck, I'm buying gold bars like they are going out of fashion. I won't be effected in the slightest, in fact a collapse will be great!

 

[websaway]

Probably been mentioned already (I haven't read all the 50+ pages of comments) But, I think you can be Sure this vote will end up with a Similar outcome to the Scottish Independence vote - The Vast Majority of those that wish to Stay, are staying Silent (Why get into a debate that is fraught with speculative argument) When you can just put your tick in the box on the day and be done with it. 56% to stay 44% to leave would be my prediction

There was a high turnout in the scot ref. What do you think the turnout will be. What are your mates down the pub saying, do you get the impression the ins will vote.

 

[AssetDomains]

Twin towers
Charlie Hebdo
7/7 etc,etc,etc.
Yes I see your point.
But of course this will be an American or a Colonial problem.

I haven't added it up but the people who carried out these attacks number in the tens maybe hundreds its a far cry from millions or are all Muslims really terrorists deep down?
Every society has nut jobs I'm afraid. As I've said previously I just don't believe leaving the EU will make it any less likely that one of these nut jobs will sadly succeed in committing unspeakable acts in the UK. If anything its more likely to make it happen because lets face even if all the economic experts are wrong and Britons economy doesn't suffer in the slightest I'm not sure you can say the same for the EU's economy what does that mean for the funding of the security services in these countries are they going to come under pressure are potentially more people going to slip through the cracks and will that make it more likely that one of them makes it over to here.

Oh and one more point on nutjobs people with white faces do unspeakable things as well

http://www.biography.com/people/fred-west-17169706
http://www.biography.com/people/myra-hindley-229551
http://www.biography.com/people/harold-shipman-17169712
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Lets not forget the Daddy of them all
http://www.biography.com/people/adolf-hitler-9340144
In or out what goes on in Europe will continue to effect us, occasionally with dire results isn't it better we have a say, provide a leading voice.

On the economic side of immigration. How can you cost it when you don't know who or how many will come. is it 300,000 per year like last year or is it 500,000 per year or is it 750,000 per year. Are they labourers, doctors, scientists, drug barons, sex traffickers, people smugglers, convicted pheadophiles, engineers, carpenters.?

I'd take some figures from the last few years or wait don't they say migrations probably had a net benefit to the UK economy

In regards to the drug barons, sex traffickers, people smugglers, convicted paedophiles Contrary to what Nigel and Boris would have you believe we can refuse these people entry. the British parliament chose not to check the backgrounds of those who want to come and live here that's a British choice nothing to do with the EU
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...inals-allowed-free-entry-uk-vote-leave-claims

Anyway this is all just going round in circles now so I think I'll bow out for a while. From everything I've read so far there's only one credible argument to vote leave and that's to make British Law absolute Is this enough to vote out I'm still not 100% sold on that one. If the leave came up with some credible evidence to back the rest of there claims then the may be an argument to take the risk. As it stands at the moment probably better the devil you know.

Websaway I disagree fundamentally with your take on the Migration argument but I do respect the fact you have the Ball's to say what you really believe.