EU Referendum

[Toonz]

As much as I reason with your point, richer getting richer at the expense of the poor is as a result of government policy choices, nothing to do with EU.

Current government in the last 6 years embark on austerity policies, when we choose to fund cuts with borrowing, the poor are the only one that will suffer, the choice of what is been cut also affect the poor.

Its a choice we made as a nation when we elect the government we had since 2010, the fundamentals of conservatives is small government, no matter who leads the party, hence the cuts and sell off, they even have a think tank body for it.

As much as I agree with your point this issue is our own making very little to do with EU, actually if not the EU intervention in some situation, it might even be worse.

Remember this government fought the EU with regards to bonuses to bankers and level of taxes to finance companies.

With regards to owing your own home, if this current government continues on the same path, the current housing problems will be nothing compare to what it will be in the future. What we are experiencing now is a policy shift on housing in the 80s, I don't need to add the controversy of green belt to it and this is also deviating from the issue of EU "IN or OUT" vote.

If I am wrong I am open to correction but our poor getting poorer, first time buyer issues are majority to do with our current economy policies.

I think you raise important points. The UK has a long record of blocking/vetoing the EU's worker-friendly, consumer-friendly legislation, much as the US does when negotiating with other international bodies. The idea that the working man - the 'have-not' - will be better off out is, I think, naive. I accept that putting a halt to wage deflation is a positive. That's good. But when you weigh that up against the free market fanaticism so beloved of most of the leading Brexiters and the loss of sovereignty to corporations that I expect to take place (and yes that's a prediction, but we're all making predictions here) - for me it pales by comparison.

 

[websaway]

As much as I reason with your point, richer getting richer at the expense of the poor is as a result of government policy choices, nothing to do with EU.

Current government in the last 6 years embark on austerity policies, when we choose to fund cuts with borrowing, the poor are the only one that will suffer, the choice of what is been cut also affect the poor.

Its a choice we made as a nation when we elect the government we had since 2010, the fundamentals of conservatives is small government, no matter who leads the party, hence the cuts and sell off, they even have a think tank body for it.

As much as I agree with your point this issue is our own making very little to do with EU, actually if not the EU intervention in some situation, it might even be worse.

Remember this government fought the EU with regards to bonuses to bankers and level of taxes to finance companies.

With regards to owing your own home, if this current government continues on the same path, the current housing problems will be nothing compare to what it will be in the future. What we are experiencing now is a policy shift on housing in the 80s, I don't need to add the controversy of green belt to it and this is also deviating from the issue of EU "IN or OUT" vote.

If I am wrong I am open to correction but our poor getting poorer, first time buyer issues are majority to do with our current economy policies.

The point I make is that we will not suffer the increased economy pressures that Cameron is projecting. Higher interest rates he says could add £1000 per year to your mortgage payments, he doesn't mention it will also mean a better return on savings.
I think you miss the point I make that uncontrolled immigration and all it's implications is the fault of EU membership. The bankers bonuses were a small proportion compared to the amount that have got richer through low cost borrowing, increased domestic property ownership and higher rents .

 

[bonusmedia]

Presumably most armchair economists making grand pronouncements with such certainty are not actually involved in making big corporate investment decisions - so what on earth gives them the confidence they can tell us what will happen after Brexit - especially when they directly contradict the positions of the majority who actually hold that power?

I'm confident we'll remain but getting ready to buy dollars if this poll trend continues.

 

[websaway]

Presumably most armchair economists making grand pronouncements with such certainty are not actually involved in making big corporate investment decisions - so what on earth gives them the confidence they can tell us what will happen after Brexit - especially when they directly contradict the positions of the majority who actually hold that power?

I'm confident we'll remain but getting ready to buy dollars if this poll trend continues.

How can you not become, as you call it, an armchair economist, when so much of the emphasis is placed on economic decisions. By the way 5 past chancellors are backing Brexit.

 

[signature]

The point I make is that we will not suffer the increased economy pressures that Cameron is projecting. Higher interest rates he says could add £1000 per year to your mortgage payments, he doesn't mention it will also mean a better return on savings.
I think you miss the point I make that uncontrolled immigration and all it's implications is the fault of EU membership. The bankers bonuses were a small proportion compared to the amount that have got richer through low cost borrowing, increased domestic property ownership and higher rents .

Uncontrolled immigration is a big issue, remember we have open borders with EU countries for decades, its now becoming an issue with eastern block joining EU, badly managed border control and low waged economy. This is a strong point for Brexit so as Sovereignty I think, all the point you mentioned above, low cost borrowing(Japan is at this point for the last 20 years, now the rest of the world is following), increase in domestic property ownership and high rent, how is that an issue for EU?

Also Cameron saying we will be worse off by £1000/year is really a none starter, there is no one singe negative forecast for Brexit that we have not experience in recent times, in the early 90s rate hit 15% while we are in the EU, in 2008, house price in some area were almost half while we are in the EU, its just another scare tactics.

 

[Toonz]

By the way 5 past chancellors are backing Brexit.

And they are...?

 

[RobM]

Yes only people with economy degrees are allowed to discuss this. Next.

 

[Edwin]

How can you not become, as you call it, an armchair economist, when so much of the emphasis is placed on economic decisions. By the way 5 past chancellors are backing Brexit.

I think you've got the stat the wrong way around. There are 7 living Chancellors and former Chancellors of the Exchequer.

They break down as follows:

BACK "LEAVE"
- Norman Lamont*
- Nigel Lawson

(* humiliated by "Black Wednesday" when Britain was forced out of the ERM)

BACK "REMAIN"
- Kenneth Clarke
- John Major
- Gordon Brown
- Alistair Darling
- George Osborne

 

[bonusmedia]

Yes only people with economy degrees are allowed to discuss this. Next.

Not at all - but those without should not presume they know better

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[RobM]

We can all quote things from the internet. This is a *discussion*. If someone has a different opinion to yours you don't have to respond with thinly veiled vitriol - debate it or ignore it.

 

[bonusmedia]

We can all quote things from the internet. This is a *discussion*. If someone has a different opinion to yours you don't have to respond with thinly veiled vitriol - debate it or ignore it.

Made me smile.

I am trying to debate. I think your point was "Yes only people with economy degrees are allowed to discuss this. Next." I don't think this responds to my point at all, you're simply trying to shut me down. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Again, my question is how do those who make sweeping statements about the future after Brexit have such confidence, when they contradict those who will actually make the investment decisions?

It's very difficult to support a point without citing sources or quoting others.

 

[Edwin]

BTW, if you've not been following the subject that closely, here are how all the still-living leaders and former leaders of the three main political parties stand on "Brexit"...

CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
John Major, William Hague, David Cameron

BACK LEAVE
Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard

-----------------

LABOUR PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
Neil Kinnock, Margaret Beckett, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman, Ed Miliband, Jeremy Corbyn

BACK LEAVE
(nobody)

-----------------

LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
David Steel, Robert Maclennan, Paddy Ashdown, Menzies Campbell, Vincent Cable, Nick Clegg, Tim Farron

BACK LEAVE
(nobody)

 

[websaway]

BTW, if you've not been following the subject that closely, here are how all the still-living leaders and former leaders of the three main political parties stand on "Brexit"...

CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
John Major, William Hague, David Cameron

BACK LEAVE
Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard

-----------------

LABOUR PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
Neil Kinnock, Margaret Beckett, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman, Ed Miliband, Jeremy Corbyn

BACK LEAVE
(nobody)

-----------------

LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEADERS

BACK REMAIN
David Steel, Robert Maclennan, Paddy Ashdown, Menzies Campbell, Vincent Cable, Nick Clegg, Tim Farron

BACK LEAVE
(nobody)

We would need to look into their financial interests now and what they would lose by a Brexit.

 

[RobM]

Made me smile.

I am trying to debate. I think your point was "Yes only people with economy degrees are allowed to discuss this. Next." I don't think this responds to my point at all, you're simply trying to shut me down. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Again, my question is how do those who make sweeping statements about the future after Brexit have such confidence, when they contradict those who will actually make the investment decisions?

It's very difficult to support a point without citing sources or quoting others.

I know what a strawman argument is but thanks for the link. I don't need to 'shut you down' I was just pointing out that you suggested people with an opinion were 'armchair economists' who don't know enough and therefore shouldn't state their opinions as others knew more. A strawman argument, by the way, would be IF you hadn't made your post and I suggested you did and then argued against it. I could be childish and post a link explaining what an argument is called when you accuse someone of the wrong type of argument but I wont

Anyway back to the discussion - a lot of people you have mentioned above Edwin are people that are currently benefitting (personally) from financial restitution or expect to benefit (personally) from financial restitution in the future. I would be more inclined to look at the countries now in the EU (Malta isn't the only one) who weren't at the beginning - then look at them now and how they've benefitted/not benefitted from the move. It doesn't paint a pretty picture with the only people in those countries who would vote remain being exactly the same people benefitting personally from being in. If UK votes out I expect a lot of countries will follow.

 

[Toonz]

We would need to look into their financial interests now and what they would lose by a Brexit.

Hold on, you can't have it both ways. You were bragging about having 5 ex-Chancellors a minute ago. Not only was that claim wrong, you're now being selective in how you judge them.

 

[Edwin]

If UK votes out I expect a lot of countries will follow.

If that's really the case, the countries most keen to preserve the EU will be forced to make the UK pay very, very dearly for having left, out of the necessity to prevent a more widespread exodus.

For example, there will be elections in France next year, and there's a great deal of worry that the Front National will do extremely well, perhaps even become the largest party. You could imagine the French government pushing to "hurt" Britain in the interim to dampen home-grown enthusiasm for a referendum aimed at a possible "Frexit".

 

[RobM]

Surely though if you have to threaten or force someone to stay there's something wrong. Hypothetically, if UK left and then other countries wanted to follow - why would these countries want to - they surely would only want to follow because they'd seen that leaving was something that benefitted the UK? If it didn't they would want to stay and could have a good laugh at the UK's misfortune. If the EU are convinced that not being part of it is so bad why do they worry that MORE THAN ONE country would leave? It's just pure extortion if that's the case. ie they know it's good for countries that leave but it benefits others.

 

[RobM]

I really don't subscribe to the theory that 'UK should stay in or else... we'll make them sorry.' That's not an argument. It has never worked in the past.

 

[Toonz]

Surely though if you have to threaten or force someone to stay there's something wrong. Hypothetically, if UK left and then other countries wanted to follow - why would these countries want to - they surely would only want to follow because they'd seen that leaving was something that benefitted the UK? If it didn't they would want to stay and could have a good laugh at the UK's misfortune. If the EU are convinced that not being part of it is so bad why do they worry that MORE THAN ONE country would leave? It's just pure extortion if that's the case. ie they know it's good for countries that leave but it benefits others.

You may be correct in your assessment here Rob, but the fact remains that it's very much in the EU's interest (indeed its survival may depend on it) to demonstrate very clearly that life is better inside the EU than outside. And that doesn't bode well for Britain. That's not me defending them, nor is it a defeatist attitude. It's just about facing politics as it is rather than as we'd like it to be.

 

[RobM]

I guess we'll have to wait for their demonstration then