EU Referendum

[RobM]

I thought the UK didn't negotiate demands in a blackmail/kidnap situation? Isn't claiming that people should choose something because otherwise they'll be 'punished' the opposite?

 

[websaway]

Heard Tim Roach GMB trade unionist this morning complaining about low wages and zero hours contracts in the UK. He doesn't think it's free movement that's to blame and advises his members to vote to stay in a reformed EU. I wonder if he's read the ballot paper. There is no box to tick for a reformed EU.

 

[disruptive]

Heard Tim Roach GMB trade unionist this morning complaining about low wages and zero hours contracts in the UK. He doesn't think it's free movement that's to blame and advises his members to vote to stay in a reformed EU. I wonder if he's read the ballot paper. There is no box to tick for a reformed EU.

Sadly this is the view of many a Union Man, that I come across - they don't seem to realise that between the flood of low wage workers and automation their voters are doomed unless they act. The love of the EU from the left is beyond comprehension.

I don't think anyone who has a net worth less than around £3M and who can insulate themselves what is happening should be voting to stay in.

 

[Edwin]

So you agree then, once in it's a kind of mafiosa type of organisation.

No, not particularly. It's a strange beast because of the constant need for consensus building, which pretty much guarantees everyone will be somewhat disappointed most of the time. But that's completely different from what you're suggesting...

 

[Edwin]

I thought the UK didn't negotiate demands in a blackmail/kidnap situation? Isn't claiming that people should choose something because otherwise they'll be 'punished' the opposite?

The thing is, the Leave camp paint a scenario that includes the rosiest of all possible outcomes at every turn. Thousands of years of human history suggest that having everything go exactly the UK's way is as unlikely as flipping a dozen heads in a row when tossing a coin.

Countries are nasty, self-centred, self-interested. So many elements of the Leave scenario involve other countries behaving contrary to their own best interests for reasons that are never forthcoming...

It's like being asked to tiptoe blindfold through a minefield to reach a pot of gold. The gold is real, but the mines are just as real. And Leave say "trust us, when the time comes, we're sure you'll miss the mines... Oh, and we're not the ones who will have to choose the footing since we're only voting to force you to cross the minefield, but it's your responsibility not to get us blown up."

 

[websaway]

I thought the UK didn't negotiate demands in a blackmail/kidnap situation? Isn't claiming that people should choose something because otherwise they'll be 'punished' the opposite?

And what happens if we try to veto Turkey j

The thing is, the Leave camp paint a scenario that includes the rosiest of all possible outcomes at every turn. Thousands of years of human history suggest that having everything go exactly the UK's way is as unlikely as flipping a dozen heads in a row when tossing a coin.

Countries are nasty, self-centred, self-interested. So many elements of the Leave scenario involve other countries behaving contrary to their own best interests for reasons that are never forthcoming...

It's like being asked to tiptoe blindfold through a minefield to reach a pot of gold. The gold is real, but the mines are just as real. And Leave say "trust us, when the time comes, we're sure you'll miss the mines... Oh, and we're not the ones who will have to choose the footing since we're only voting to force you to cross the minefield, but it's your responsibility not to get us blown up."

Miss the mines that you've conveniently invented. That stands a great chance.
You really are not doing your case a great deal of good. You are saying that we should continue to surrender our freedom and sovereignty through fear of what other countries will do to us. Just as well Churchill didn't have your outlook.

 

[RobM]

Wow did you really just use that analogy Edwin? You say the gold is real (always been there) but now we have to tiptoe through a minefield (not placed by us) to get to it - so better not try. Geez.

 

[AlistairM]

When we leave I don't think all these countries are suddenly going to stick 2 fingers up and refuse to trade with us. The EU is one thing but if it's in a countries interests to trade with us (like Germany) then do people honestly think they're going to say go and get stuffed? I don't think so.

Actually they're more likely to want a deal done as quickly as possible.

 

[AssetDomains]

In regards to the argument about cheap labour supressing wages does the same thing happen in other big EU countries such as Germany or France or are there governments/unions better at protecting workers from exploitation by there employers

 

[Edwin]

The integrity of the EU is worth vastly more to other core members than keeping the UK "sweet" and on side. So it's utterly logical to expect them to take a harsh line in any negotiations.

 

[RobM]

I don't believe the referendum is about whether the EU wants UK to stay in or not.

 

[Skinner]

I honestly expect the EU to make an example of the UK. By make an example I mean Crucify us, this is what happens when you don't be a good boy and tow the line.

Those saying the germans bmws and french champers blah, how can the germans expect to stop other countries trying the same if they bow down ? how can they expect the other members to back them for their own benefit ?

I really do think we'll be forced to look elsewhere other than the EU for a good deal.

 

[Edwin]

It's interesting to see what happens to the balance within the EU parliament with the UK's MEPs out of the picture ie in the case of a Leave scenario...
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-would-the-european-parliament-look-like-after-brexit/

 

[RobM]

It's interesting to see what happens to the balance within the EU parliament with the UK's MEPs out of the picture ie in the case of a Leave scenario...
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-would-the-european-parliament-look-like-after-brexit/

Not really.

 

[Edwin]

In regards to the argument about cheap labour supressing wages does the same thing happen in other big EU countries such as Germany or France or are there governments/unions better at protecting workers from exploitation by there employers

France generally has much better working conditions than the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36387492

 

[AlistairM]

I really do think we'll be forced to look elsewhere other than the EU for a good deal.

Once we're out of the EU we'll have the freedom to do exactly that.

 

[RobM]

I don't think the leave or remain campaign care about how Europe copes with either decision. They're probably based on how it will affect the people of UK living in UK. This thread seems to have taken a turn towards the impact on Europe after the vote.

 

[websaway]

I honestly expect the EU to make an example of the UK. By make an example I mean Crucify us, this is what happens when you don't be a good boy and tow the line.

Those saying the germans bmws and french champers blah, how can the germans expect to stop other countries trying the same if they bow down ? how can they expect the other members to back them for their own benefit ?

I really do think we'll be forced to look elsewhere other than the EU for a good deal.

Because the other members are in the Euro Zone , this Is the massive difference between us and others. Forget all this rubbish about mortgage rates rising and the pound crashing , it's all hype, We have our own currency. Companies are not all of a sudden going to up sticks and move out of the UK, people are not going to sell the pound. We are probably among the three most secure countries in the world for finance. If I was based in Europe and we left I know where I would invest. Yes you've guessed it, in an independent UK. If companies do feel the need to alter their strategy because we are no longer EU members, as many or more will move here for the same reason. Who bailed everyone out in the last recession ? we did not need help from the EU we elected a coalition that steered us through the difficulties and it's the poor that took the hit's , no higher taxes for the rich, the rich got progressively richer as a result of austerity, doesn't anyone find that ironic. And how are the rich treating the poor now. Overloading their healthcare, overloading their schools, driving their wages down, creating a domestic renting nation. For heavens sake will someone who relates to labour voters tell it the way it is. I can tell people one thing, desire to buy your own house has kept this nation peaceful for as long as I can remember, that has been removed from the ambition of most of the younger British born people, who now have to work just to rent property, government ignores this shift in our culture at the countries peril.

 

[spiderspider]

So it's utterly logical to expect them to take a harsh line in any negotiations.

Logical to you maybe, not me.

The UK is the 3rd biggest market for German exports*, behind USA and France. We're Germany's 9th importer**

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFig...anyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

You do have to ask, what was the 2000 Euro imported from Norfolk Islands?????

That trade won't be stopped. If it is, would probably put Euro back into recession. You seem to be forgetting that all these countries have economies, and people to answer to.

The FACTS speak for themselves. Just because its not in the Guardian (or is), don't make it right (or wrong).

*Same for France
**5th France http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/fra/

 

[signature]

Because the other members are in the Euro Zone , this Is the massive difference between us and others. Forget all this rubbish about mortgage rates rising and the pound crashing , it's all hype, We have our own currency. Companies are not all of a sudden going to up sticks and move out of the UK, people are not going to sell the pound. We are probably among the three most secure countries in the world for finance. If I was based in Europe and we left I know where I would invest. Yes you've guessed it, in an independent UK. If companies do feel the need to alter their strategy because we are no longer EU members, as many or more will move here for the same reason. Who bailed everyone out in the last recession ? we did not need help from the EU we elected a coalition that steered us through the difficulties and it's the poor that took the hit's , no higher taxes for the rich, the rich got progressively richer as a result of austerity, doesn't anyone find that ironic. And how are the rich treating the poor now. Overloading their healthcare, overloading their schools, driving their wages down, creating a domestic renting nation. For heavens sake will someone who relates to labour voters tell it the way it is. I can tell people one thing, desire to buy your own house has kept this nation peaceful for as long as I can remember, that has been removed from the ambition of most of the younger British born people, who now have to work just to rent property, government ignores this shift in our culture at the countries peril.

As much as I reason with your point, richer getting richer at the expense of the poor is as a result of government policy choices, nothing to do with EU.

Current government in the last 6 years embark on austerity policies, when we choose to fund cuts with borrowing, the poor are the only one that will suffer, the choice of what is been cut also affect the poor.

Its a choice we made as a nation when we elect the government we had since 2010, the fundamentals of conservatives is small government, no matter who leads the party, hence the cuts and sell off, they even have a think tank body for it.

As much as I agree with your point this issue is our own making very little to do with EU, actually if not the EU intervention in some situation, it might even be worse.

Remember this government fought the EU with regards to bonuses to bankers and level of taxes to finance companies.

With regards to owing your own home, if this current government continues on the same path, the current housing problems will be nothing compare to what it will be in the future. What we are experiencing now is a policy shift on housing in the 80s, I don't need to add the controversy of green belt to it and this is also deviating from the issue of EU "IN or OUT" vote.

If I am wrong I am open to correction but our poor getting poorer, first time buyer issues are majority to do with our current economy policies.