EU Referendum

[websaway]

What lies?

And can you back these up with proof that they are really lies, and not just your interpretation?

2 Questions.

Put yourself in the remain camps position, they are wounded and everything they read touches a nerve ( hope they don't read the daily mail ) and I think some, for whatever reason feel they had a vested interest in remaining.

 

[zehrila]

So the organisation needed to learn and mature and it needed better regulations.
bit ambiguous but good luck with that one.

Well the pound could be $1.75 later on in the year and you would recuperate your losses.

No system is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Our Govt needs to improve a lot on a lot of things as well.

"could be"? what makes you anticipate that?

 

[Edwin]

From article headline: "Cornwall pleads"

The thesaurus gives "beg" as a main synonymn of "plead". So nothing whatsoever wrong with my choice of word.

 

[spiderspider]

Put yourself in the remain camps position, they are wounded and everything they read touches a nerve ( hope they don't read the daily mail ) and I think some, for whatever reason feel they had a vested interest in remaining.

I get what you're saying, and couldn't agree more

Rather than saying 'well that was, what was' some feel they need to blow things up (not literally, I hope) and keep banging on with this being wrong, that being wrong, rather than shutting up.

I admit I did go OTT this morning Still stand by my comments But now having great fun pointing out to the pessimist that riots haven't broken out, I can still fill my car with fuel, get money out the bank, get treated at hospital, go on a booze cruise, stand and watch the ferries go back and forth etc etc

 

[websaway]

Yes, absolutely. The SNP is holding an extraordinary meeting this morning to plan their strategy towards holding the second referendum. Their 62% remain margin's pretty big - and they'd only need a simple majority in the second referendum in order to prevail, assuming it's held under the same rules as the first.

And it might well be that the EU would be happy to make special accommodations to Scotland to "preserve" its existing in-EU status as another way of signalling to other countries that it's better to stay inside the club than leave it. And they might start making noises in that direction early if it looked like that might help their case.

My point was, although I thought that Scotland may vote to leave us in the last referendum, I cannot now see intelligent middle aged Scots buying the message that we want to be independent so that we can join an organisation where we surrender our independence.

 

[Edwin]

Good explainer on the (in)famous Article 50.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/article-50-brexit-debate-britain-eu

 

[Brassneck]

Beside all other reaction buttons, Agree, Like, Funny etc, I want FacePalm the most

One for wishing thinking would be great also.

Basically, we are now in a situation where nobody really knows how it will all end. I'm incrediby depressed and worried about how all this has turned out. What I do know is that this is great for civil servants in the UK - will be a massive job creation scheme in that sector probably at the expense of spending on front line services.

 

[spiderspider]

From article headline: "Cornwall pleads"

The thesaurus gives "beg" as a main synonymn of "plead". So nothing whatsoever wrong with my choice of word.

'Cornwall backs Brexit then asks to be allowed to keep its EU funding'

.......Is the article headline


'Cornwall pleaded with the government to step in to fill the gap to be left by EU funding after the county decisively voted for Brexit.'

......... is the first paragraph.

You will see it says 'pleaded' and not 'pleads'. This would imply it has already happened. so yes their is still issues with what you're saying.

Still nothing about begging?

Plus still no answer to my other questions???? Maybe you can't back up those comments?

 

[websaway]

No system is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Our Govt needs to improve a lot on a lot of things as well.

"could be"? what makes you anticipate that?

It's never going to be perfect at Westminster but at least it is accountable to us the people.
I voted to stay in in 1975. I never complained about being a member, I was particularly uncomfortable as more countries joined and were allowed free access to the UK. I was uncomfortable about the erosion of our ability to create our own laws. I was always of the opinion that you have to row with the oar you have, and get on with it. But given an opportunity to be part of an ever growing united states of Europe or leave, I felt it better to go it alone.
Nothing is perfect, some things are more imperfect than others.

 

[dazc]

Here's a different take on it. I was born an EU Citizen, it's all I have known. Now I am not, it has been taken away from me (or will be in 2 years). I use the benefit of that right by living, working and paying taxes in another European country. Feels wrong.

I live in Spain and the American, Russian and Swiss people I know manage to live there also without being EU citizens?

If it bothers you that much get a barking dog and become a Spanish citizen instead.

 

[Toonz]

Can I just clear something up.

As a remainer, I don't - and won't - want our side's dire predictions to come to pass, be it the changing of the border at Calais or the rowing back of Brexiter's promises/lies or whatever else.

The idea that, as a remainer, I would "wish" for these things to occur just so that I could win a debate point on here or engage in some schadenfreude is childish beyond belief.

That message is just aimed at the hard-of-thinking.

To the more thoughtful and intelligent posters on here on both sides of the aisle - thank you for an enjoyable debate.

 

[Admin]

I live in Spain and the American, Russian and Swiss people I know manage to live there also without being EU citizens?

If it bothers you that much get a barking dog and become a Spanish citizen instead.

I've got a barking dog, not much appetite for Spanish citizenship though, I'm British. Of course, I don't know whether the people you refer to have legal visas, are Spanish tax payers etc or whether they just live here under the radar, I don't.

 

[pberry4032]

The main thing that worried me about remaining is the TTIP agreement and what that could have done to us as a nation. Will be interesting to see how it affects the EU countries in a few years time.

 

[websaway]

One for wishing thinking would be great also.

Basically, we are now in a situation where nobody really knows how it will all end. I'm incrediby depressed and worried about how all this has turned out. What I do know is that this is great for civil servants in the UK - will be a massive job creation scheme in that sector probably at the expense of spending on front line services.

I can tell you where it will all end , it will all end OK, don't be depressed. Make a point of going to have a look how some people live and then you will see how lucky you are. The scare stories that the treasury gave out are unforgivable. They will go off to their mansions and drink brandies, while the ordinary people have to live with the mental anguish of a picture of a hopeless future they painted and instilled in their mind. It simply isn't true, markets can crumble, the pound can drop ( they haven't, the stock market ended down 2.7%, the pound lost about 5% ) but the markets will recover, the huge amounts of money swimming around the world looking for investment, have to find somewhere to go and we are a good bet, and have always been, with the exception of a short spell when the trade unions took over. If we retain a tory government over the next few years we will have no long term problems as a result of leaving. To look on the very bright side a bubble was building in the UK that would have had to eventually burst, so might be a blessing in disguise.

 

[VSC]

Various petitions have been started on change.org as a result of the referendum:
https://www.change.org/m/brexit?utm..._ZgxkD0PePlivh6lAryQ2U+6HaIojfwPVtulQYFbGsZc=

 

[Toonz]

The main thing that worried me about remaining is the TTIP agreement and what that could have done to us as a nation. Will be interesting to see how it affects the EU countries in a few years time.

Yes, that worried me originally too. What brought me back into the remain fold was the belief that we would end up having to accept a trade agreement even more draconian than TTIP. That's partly because we are likely to have the Tory Right in charge - and also because we will be negotiating from a weaker position as a single nation rather than a powerful block of 28 countries. Yes Britain carries some weight, but is it really comparable? (I favour realism rather than tub-thumping patriotism of the "close your eyes, it will all be alright" variety.)

Yes the decision is in "our" hands rather than the hands of Brussels, but in this case "our" means the Tory Right government (realistically Labour are nowhere near No 10) so the question then becomes, can we rely on the Great British public to stop our elected officials from handing away our hard won rights and sovereignty to big corporations who have even less accountability to us than the EU. Given that most people's involvement in democracy consists solely of voting in general elections and referendums (rather than protest and direct action), I'm really not sure.

 

[dazc]

I've got a barking dog, not much appetite for Spanish citizenship though, I'm British. Of course, I don't know whether the people you refer to have legal visas, are Spanish tax payers etc or whether they just live here under the radar, I don't.

Well a bit of each I guess (there isn't much of a radar anyway) although I have Russian friend with citizenship and he travels from Russia to Spain and back with little or no more impediment than I do (to and from UK).

 

[VSC]

We are not privy to the parts of government that control international relations, maybe our security services , our diplomatic services, our ministry of defence , our treasury department, or suchlike provide something to France that they would not want to lose.
We are not a rogue state nobody is applying sanctions on us.
If the EU are purposefully vindictive to the UK it will have severe consequences for them and it would show them up to be what they are, a dictatorial bloc.
I can't get my head around the Scotland thing. If they have a referendum and the message is to leave England so we can be independent and not controlled by Westminster and it would allow us to join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Can you see the adult intelligent population of Scotland buying that one.

Security - Yes, you're right that we don't know. Before the EU we worked closely with France on issues that mattered to both of us. All I am saying is that on it's own there is no benefit to France to keep the UK border in France. Whether it can be added as part of a package of agreements in a trade deal I don't know ... I would think that France would be happy to see the back of the camp which has been partly caused by the border controls being there.

Rogue State - Not a question of that. Countries will do what they have to do to best serve their own best interest. The EU as a body has to focus on itself now and what is in the best of interest of keeping the EU together etc etc.

Vindictive - Again, I do not believe that any actions that the UK regard as being against them, being taken by European countries or the EU would be vindictive - there is too much to lose on both sides. It may be that for the best interests of the EU / France (whoever) it would mean that the UK would receive short shrift.

Scotland - Well again it may be down to emotion. They want independence, and being an independent small country, they may feel the benefits would outweigh the disadvantages ... I don't know what level of grants they get from the EU, but it would be unlikely that an independent Scotland could raise the lost EU grants should they gain independence and be out of the EU.

 

[gimpydog]

There is sooo much negative energy coming from this forum since Friday, my monitor is dimming

Now is the time to get behind the country and make it the best we can with what's been decided rather than continue the arguing and fighting we had in the run up to the vote..

Some people need to move on from 'project fear', stop talking the country down and put their shoulders to the wheel.

 

[gimpydog]

More "fruitcakes" on the right hand side than the left.