EU Referendum

[websaway]

No system is perfect, there is always room for improvement. Our Govt needs to improve a lot on a lot of things as well.

"could be"? what makes you anticipate that?

It's never going to be perfect at Westminster but at least it is accountable to us the people.
I voted to stay in in 1975. I never complained about being a member, I was particularly uncomfortable as more countries joined and were allowed free access to the UK. I was uncomfortable about the erosion of our ability to create our own laws. I was always of the opinion that you have to row with the oar you have, and get on with it. But given an opportunity to be part of an ever growing united states of Europe or leave, I felt it better to go it alone.
Nothing is perfect, some things are more imperfect than others.

 

[dazc]

Here's a different take on it. I was born an EU Citizen, it's all I have known. Now I am not, it has been taken away from me (or will be in 2 years). I use the benefit of that right by living, working and paying taxes in another European country. Feels wrong.

I live in Spain and the American, Russian and Swiss people I know manage to live there also without being EU citizens?

If it bothers you that much get a barking dog and become a Spanish citizen instead.

 

[Toonz]

Can I just clear something up.

As a remainer, I don't - and won't - want our side's dire predictions to come to pass, be it the changing of the border at Calais or the rowing back of Brexiter's promises/lies or whatever else.

The idea that, as a remainer, I would "wish" for these things to occur just so that I could win a debate point on here or engage in some schadenfreude is childish beyond belief.

That message is just aimed at the hard-of-thinking.

To the more thoughtful and intelligent posters on here on both sides of the aisle - thank you for an enjoyable debate.

 

[Admin]

I live in Spain and the American, Russian and Swiss people I know manage to live there also without being EU citizens?

If it bothers you that much get a barking dog and become a Spanish citizen instead.

I've got a barking dog, not much appetite for Spanish citizenship though, I'm British. Of course, I don't know whether the people you refer to have legal visas, are Spanish tax payers etc or whether they just live here under the radar, I don't.

 

[pberry4032]

The main thing that worried me about remaining is the TTIP agreement and what that could have done to us as a nation. Will be interesting to see how it affects the EU countries in a few years time.

 

[websaway]

One for wishing thinking would be great also.

Basically, we are now in a situation where nobody really knows how it will all end. I'm incrediby depressed and worried about how all this has turned out. What I do know is that this is great for civil servants in the UK - will be a massive job creation scheme in that sector probably at the expense of spending on front line services.

I can tell you where it will all end , it will all end OK, don't be depressed. Make a point of going to have a look how some people live and then you will see how lucky you are. The scare stories that the treasury gave out are unforgivable. They will go off to their mansions and drink brandies, while the ordinary people have to live with the mental anguish of a picture of a hopeless future they painted and instilled in their mind. It simply isn't true, markets can crumble, the pound can drop ( they haven't, the stock market ended down 2.7%, the pound lost about 5% ) but the markets will recover, the huge amounts of money swimming around the world looking for investment, have to find somewhere to go and we are a good bet, and have always been, with the exception of a short spell when the trade unions took over. If we retain a tory government over the next few years we will have no long term problems as a result of leaving. To look on the very bright side a bubble was building in the UK that would have had to eventually burst, so might be a blessing in disguise.

 

[VSC]

Various petitions have been started on change.org as a result of the referendum:
https://www.change.org/m/brexit?utm..._ZgxkD0PePlivh6lAryQ2U+6HaIojfwPVtulQYFbGsZc=

 

[Toonz]

The main thing that worried me about remaining is the TTIP agreement and what that could have done to us as a nation. Will be interesting to see how it affects the EU countries in a few years time.

Yes, that worried me originally too. What brought me back into the remain fold was the belief that we would end up having to accept a trade agreement even more draconian than TTIP. That's partly because we are likely to have the Tory Right in charge - and also because we will be negotiating from a weaker position as a single nation rather than a powerful block of 28 countries. Yes Britain carries some weight, but is it really comparable? (I favour realism rather than tub-thumping patriotism of the "close your eyes, it will all be alright" variety.)

Yes the decision is in "our" hands rather than the hands of Brussels, but in this case "our" means the Tory Right government (realistically Labour are nowhere near No 10) so the question then becomes, can we rely on the Great British public to stop our elected officials from handing away our hard won rights and sovereignty to big corporations who have even less accountability to us than the EU. Given that most people's involvement in democracy consists solely of voting in general elections and referendums (rather than protest and direct action), I'm really not sure.

 

[dazc]

I've got a barking dog, not much appetite for Spanish citizenship though, I'm British. Of course, I don't know whether the people you refer to have legal visas, are Spanish tax payers etc or whether they just live here under the radar, I don't.

Well a bit of each I guess (there isn't much of a radar anyway) although I have Russian friend with citizenship and he travels from Russia to Spain and back with little or no more impediment than I do (to and from UK).

 

[VSC]

We are not privy to the parts of government that control international relations, maybe our security services , our diplomatic services, our ministry of defence , our treasury department, or suchlike provide something to France that they would not want to lose.
We are not a rogue state nobody is applying sanctions on us.
If the EU are purposefully vindictive to the UK it will have severe consequences for them and it would show them up to be what they are, a dictatorial bloc.
I can't get my head around the Scotland thing. If they have a referendum and the message is to leave England so we can be independent and not controlled by Westminster and it would allow us to join the EU and be controlled by Brussels. Can you see the adult intelligent population of Scotland buying that one.

Security - Yes, you're right that we don't know. Before the EU we worked closely with France on issues that mattered to both of us. All I am saying is that on it's own there is no benefit to France to keep the UK border in France. Whether it can be added as part of a package of agreements in a trade deal I don't know ... I would think that France would be happy to see the back of the camp which has been partly caused by the border controls being there.

Rogue State - Not a question of that. Countries will do what they have to do to best serve their own best interest. The EU as a body has to focus on itself now and what is in the best of interest of keeping the EU together etc etc.

Vindictive - Again, I do not believe that any actions that the UK regard as being against them, being taken by European countries or the EU would be vindictive - there is too much to lose on both sides. It may be that for the best interests of the EU / France (whoever) it would mean that the UK would receive short shrift.

Scotland - Well again it may be down to emotion. They want independence, and being an independent small country, they may feel the benefits would outweigh the disadvantages ... I don't know what level of grants they get from the EU, but it would be unlikely that an independent Scotland could raise the lost EU grants should they gain independence and be out of the EU.

 

[gimpydog]

There is sooo much negative energy coming from this forum since Friday, my monitor is dimming

Now is the time to get behind the country and make it the best we can with what's been decided rather than continue the arguing and fighting we had in the run up to the vote..

Some people need to move on from 'project fear', stop talking the country down and put their shoulders to the wheel.

 

[gimpydog]

More "fruitcakes" on the right hand side than the left.

 

[VSC]

Maybe a language thing, but 'Demands to keep EU funding' is incorrect.

Yes, you're right ... he said insisted:
“We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme ..."

Will have to join the queue ...

 

[gimpydog]

"The anger in the air is palpable. The ordinary people hold the political class in contempt.

The government is failing, as war and economic catastrophe are dealt with in increasingly unconvincing fashion by second-rate public servants.

There is, for the first time in a generation, a sense of revolution brewing.

This is not today's Britain. It is England in 1381, the year that witnessed one of the greatest popular risings in our history: the Peasants' Revolt."

"There are three things of such a sort that they produce merciless destruction when they get the upper hand;

One is a flood of water, another is a raging fire and the third is the lesser people, the common multitude; for they will not be stopped by either reason or by discipline."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8061000/8061725.stm

 

[VSC]

Where does it say they won't get it??????

You are quite correct - we do not know whether they will or will not.
The fact is the UK had been allocated $5.3 billion of regeneration funding to the end of 2020.
That will continue till the UK leaves. say in 2018.
The challenge after that is will the economy be in state to support to continue the funding.
We do not know.
It is too early to say one way or or another - based on the very very short term market reaction so far the answer would have to be no.
BUT we simply do not know whether all the monies paid out to all the UK bodies by the EU could be continued post exit.

 

[Murray]

I keep reading about the EU funding things in the UK, dumb question, but where do they get the money from?

I know member states have to pay a fee and reading here on fullfact.org it says

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

So was it not a case of the EU giving institutions here money, kind of like bribes, to say "heyy you can't leave, look how much we do for you!" when they're just giving us back our own money to begin with?

If they aren't just giving us back our own money, where are they getting the money from? whose money is it; does the EU generate major income not from EU member states

 

[VSC]

.

Rather than saying 'well that was, what was' some feel they need to blow things up (not literally, I hope) and keep banging on with this being wrong, that being wrong, rather than shutting up.

again - it is a democracy ... people are allowed to voice their opinions and concerns, and where they perceive a falsehood comment on it.

 

[Murray]

On the topic of Calais, France's interior minister said

"Because if we open the border tomorrow, what will happen? The British control their own borders and can block the arrival of migrants into Britain. They would then be sent back to France ... which would worsen the humanitarian crisis,"

People are more likely to click on and share "scary" articles

 

[websaway]

For those who think that the age of voting should be lowered to 16.

When I was a boy of 17, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in three years.

— Mark Twain or somebody else.

 

[VSC]

On the topic of Calais, France's interior minister said

People are more likely to click on and share "scary" articles

But the Mayor of Calais disagrees:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553

I hope humanitarianism wins - but if it didn't France could refuse to accept back peoples that the UK refused to let in ... a worst case scenario which I hope never happens - leaving people stuck on ferries in UK waters.