EU Referendum

[Edwin]

You're right. It seems plenty of Leave voters (NOT all, NOT most) just wanted to set the world on fire for the sake of watching it burn.

The irony is that they will get hit first and hardest by any downturn (as always happens).

But Alex from the Last Leg said tonight (paraphrased, I'm working from memory): "when you feel powerless you'll vote for anything that gives you a feeling of change."

 

[BREWSTERS]

The latest estimate:

Brexit has already wiped $2.08 trillion (yes, with a T!) off global markets.

That's $119,466 per Leave vote cast.

No wonder the rest of the world is angry right now!

On paper. In fact, not even that....on a screen. Here you go, £2,000,000,000,000.00

The ship as you say, was sailing towards oblivion, and most people seem to have realised it.

And who says the rest of the world is angry? We are a beacon for the rest of the world right now. Are you aware of what's been going on in France the last few weeks? I'm not talking football.

 

[bonusmedia]

Are you aware of what's been going on in France the last few weeks?

Are you suggesting the rise of the National Front is a good thing? Didn't you say you were centre-left?

 

[Edwin]

Here are the lying liars you voted for
https://twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/746466834610692096

(I'm not suggesting that YOU voted because of their lies, but they WERE lying!)

 

[Murray]

The EU making laws for the UK was totally against democracy and freedom

Am I not correct in saying that?

 

[bonusmedia]

The EU making laws for the UK was totally against democracy and freedom

Am I not correct in saying that?

That depends. Do you think the UK making laws for Birmingham is totally against democracy and freedom in Birmingham?

We were not separate to the EU - we were involved in making those laws, and in fact we got our own way more often than not. There was certainly compromise involved, but if you want co-operation there always is.

 

[Murray]

We were not separate to the EU - we were involved in making those laws.

I assume the information in this article it correct, hopefully someone can inform me if not

like competition policy, agriculture, and copyright and patent law — EU rules override national laws.

Euroskeptics emphasize that the EU’s executive branch, called the European Commission, isn’t directly accountable to voters in Britain or anyone else. British leaders have some influence on the selection of the European Commission’s members every five years. But once the body has been chosen, none of its members are accountable to the British government or to Britons’ elected representatives in the European Parliament.

EU rules override national laws.. fundamentally it's just wrong isn't it?

 

[Edwin]

That depends. Do you think the UK making laws for Birmingham is totally against democracy and freedom in Birmingham?

We were not separate to the EU - we were involved in making those laws, and in fact we got our own way more often than not. There was certainly compromise involved, but if you want co-operation there always is.

Yes. About 97% of the time, which sounds pretty good and nothing to be particularly overwrought about.

 

[Murray]

I feel like you guys would have been mad at the people throwing the tea out of the boats at Boston

 

[bonusmedia]

I assume the information in this article it correct, hopefully someone can inform me if not

EU rules override national laws.. fundamentally it's just wrong isn't it?

Firstly - I think this lays out some reasonable and genuine arguments against the EU. Nobody ever said the EU was perfect, and most people agreed the EU was in need of reform.

1) Accountability - it's true that the executive branches have an accountability problem. However, we did directly elect members of the European Parliament, and the executive was still accountable to member states, if not directly to the people

2) Yes, regulation places a burden on business, just as healthy and safety rules do. But regulation also stops bad things happening, just as healthy and safety regulations keep us healthy and safe. It's fair to argue there was too much regulation, but the way to deal with that is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

3) Possibly the strongest argument, from my point of view. We have a big issue with corporate power. However we've now given power to the far right, who are almost by definition on the side of business against the people. To quote Mussolini: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power"

more follows

 

[Edwin]

Does anyone on the Leave camp expect this to "blow over" in a few days or weeks or months?

You've got an entire generation basically feeling disenfranchised by people old enough to have (statistically) done better. Cheap housing, free education, platinum plated pensions by today's standards.

This will run forever...

 

[Edwin]

I wonder if you could see the situation becoming so toxic that none of the likely leadership candidates want to step forward because it's a guaranteed career killer after a brief, heady taste of power.

 

[bonusmedia]

4) The Euro was not right for the UK then and it isn't now. The UK did not want to be part of the 'ever stronger union', we did not want closer political or fiscal integration. We stated this and we had an agreement that would not be part of it. We had the right to veto any further transfer of powers.

5) The immigration argument has already collapsed - see the video above. Our economy relies on immigrants and will continue to do so

6) This one carries some weight. We will indeed have 'greater control'. We can now restrict immigration to more skilled people if we so wish. If you believe indigenous British people will take up all the minimum wage jobs in the fields then this is a good thing. It may result in an increase in wages for some trades which may well be a good thing - although that means it will also push up the costs of many trades and services

7) Again this argument has largely collapsed already, Farage has stated the £350 million figure was a mistake. We already got half the money back straight away, and we arguably got far more back from the benefits of being an EU member than it cost us. We may now send less to the EU - but we'll have far less to spend in the first place

Only a fool would claim there are no benefits to striking out on our own. It was a question of weighing them up against the downside - which could be economic collapse for a generation. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen. In the meantime we have a lot of very difficult issues to deal with.

Also - we're just looking at a few of the good arguments for leaving here and forgetting all the strong arguments for remaining - although I do wonder why I'm bothering

 

[Toonz]

I wonder if you could see the situation becoming so toxic that none of the likely leadership candidates want to step forward because it's a guaranteed career killer after a brief, heady taste of power.

I'm not sure - I think Boris and Theresa have been waiting so long, they won't be able to resist.

I just hope it's not Fox or Patel. They would be my nightmare.

You know what? I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for Cameron. I'm a natural LibDem and I reckon his coalition years were kinder to him than his majority ones. Still, twas his own doing - the calling of the referendum, the concessions and the nature of the campaign.

 

[Edwin]

It's probably ultimately easier to let the markets make the arguments. They're impersonal, uncaring, and cannot be swayed by emotional appeal...

 

[Toonz]

Something else I was wondering earlier is whether a situation might develop whereby it becomes clear that we will have to accept freedom of movement. Imagine how unpopular that will make the PM. If it's Labour that does it, they'll never be trusted again. Though I can't see them getting in for a very long time, if ever again (perhaps an exodus of MPs to the Lib Dems?)

 

[bonusmedia]

I feel like you guys would have been mad at the people throwing the tea out of the boats at Boston

Yes, certainly. A waste of good tea. There were plenty of good arguments for American Independence, 10% tax on tea was not one of them

 

[Edwin]

You know what? I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for Cameron. I'm a natural LibDem and I reckon his coalition years were kinder to him than his majority ones. Still, twas his own doing - the calling of the referendum, the concessions and the nature of the campaign.

Sums up my position perfectly.

There's a rather splendid Japanese expression, shiri nugui. It means "clean up someone else's mess" but more literally it means "wipe their ahem for them"

That's exactly what Cameron wasn't willing to do for Leave.

 

[Edwin]

Something else I was wondering earlier is whether a situation might develop whereby it becomes clear that we will have to accept freedom of movement. Imagine how unpopular that will make the PM. If it's Labour that does it, they'll never be trusted again. Though I can't see them getting in for a very long time, if ever again (perhaps an exodus of MPs to the Lib Dems?)

Under those circumstances, I think they will be forced to cook up some excuse for a second referendum, maybe a "save the United Kingdom" rallying cry to keep Scotland and Northern Ireland inside the union. And hopefully, having seen the damage being meted out by the implacable faceless markets we'll see a different result.

 

[bonusmedia]

Something else I was wondering earlier is whether a situation might develop whereby it becomes clear that we will have to accept freedom of movement. Imagine how unpopular that will make the PM. If it's Labour that does it, they'll never be trusted again. Though I can't see them getting in for a very long time, if ever again (perhaps an exodus of MPs to the Lib Dems?)

The video Edwin posted of Hannan rowing back and arguing for remaining in the EEA is telling.

Important to note that EU leaders have made it quite clear we can't stay in the EEA for free - we may end up paying as much or more than we did for EU membership with no say whatsoever and limited benefits