.uk And Drop Catching - Anti-gaming measures:

[Murray]

So would I be right in saying the following..

On 28th of October nominet took a snapshot in time of all the .uk registered domains and the winner of the .UK was decided and set it stone.

So it doesn't now matter if any drop, are reregistered etc, they will stick with that historic 28th October moment.

 

[Edwin]

SOME EXAMPLES

A) widget.uk
- .co.uk registered on 1 September 2013
- doesn't matter when any non-.co.uk was registered, .co.uk has right to .uk
- .co.uk right to .uk is lost if .uk is dropped, but regained by new owner if .co.uk is re-registered
- if .co.uk is registered on launch day, it gets .uk. If not, widget.uk goes to general availability

B) gizmo.uk
- .org.uk registered on 1 September 2013
- no .co.uk registered on 28 October 2013
- .org.uk wins right to .uk, but must stay continuously registered through launch to keep that right
- if .org.uk drops, then right is lost and can ONLY be won by a .co.uk
- if .org.uk still has right on launch day, it gets .uk. If right was lost because .org.uk dropped, but then gained by .co.uk, .co.uk gets .uk. If right was lost, but no .co.uk was registered, domain goes to general availability

 

[Edwin]

So would I be right in saying the following..

On 28th of October nominet took a snapshot in time of all the .uk registered domains and the winner of the .UK was decided and set it stone.

So it doesn't now matter if any drop, are reregistered etc, they will stick with that historic 28th October moment.

Nearly, but not quite.

A preliminary determination was made on 28th October 2013.

However...
A) non-.co.uk WILL drop out of contention between then and launch if they drop.
B) non-.co.uk can NEVER come into contention if they weren't already the winner on 28 October 2013
C) .co.uk COULD come into contention if non-.co.uk loses its place due to a drop and .co.uk is then registered

So any jockeying of position post 28 October 2013 will always be decided in favour of the .co.uk domain owner, if any.

 

[anthony]

I don't see it in all these convoluted ways. It's simpler to say that Nominet have used every means possible to exclude .org.uk's from having any rights in favour of the .co.uk holders.

The attitude here seems to suggest that if you're a .co.uk domainer you can now sneer at the .org.uk domainers for having a go.

The birth of 'Ethical Domaining' has occured!

 

[Murray]

Nearly, but not quite.

A preliminary determination was made on 28th October 2013.

However...
A) non-.co.uk WILL drop out of contention between then and launch if they drop.
B) non-.co.uk can NEVER come into contention if they weren't already the winner on 28 October 2013
C) .co.uk COULD come into contention if non-.co.uk loses its place due to a drop and .co.uk is then registered

So any jockeying of position post 28 October 2013 will always be decided in favour of the .co.uk domain owner, if any.

So the org.uk will only win if there was no co.uk registered on the 28th of October and they are continuously registered until launch.

In another other circumstance .co.uk will get it.

So it's going to be extremely rare co.uk wont win.

 

[Edwin]

So the org.uk will only win if there was no co.uk registered on the 28th of October and they are continuously registered until launch. In another other circumstance .co.uk will get it.

Correct, although there's also the circumstance where the .org.uk loses but no .co.uk comes along, which leads to the .uk going to general availability.

So it's going to be extremely rare co.uk wont win.

Not necessarily. Charities and non-profits operating from non-generic domains may not have secured the matching .co.uk yet they're also unlikely to have been "squatted" on precisely because their original .org.uk domain wasn't what you and I would consider a generic i.e. it has no obvious value to anyone other than them.

If I had to guess, there are probably several tens of thousands of .org.uk owners in that situation, maybe more.

Added: please remember, we're only talking about approx. 250,000 contention cases total out of over 10,000,000.

 

[Systreg]

Your two quotes above agree with each other.

Sorry Edwin, they don't to me, one quote says, if a .co.uk domain qualified on Oct 28th, if it is then cancelled and re-registered prior to launch, the .UK rights still goes to the .co.uk

The other quote says, If a .co.uk is registered after the 28th October 2013 it will only get the .UK if there are no other contesting domains.

There are conflicts, in the second quote, it doesn't say whether the .co.uk was a fresh reg that hadn't been registered before, because it if had been registered previously, then according to the first quote, it would be entitled the the .UK, but not according to the second quote.

Also, on this page:

http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-participate/policy-development/IntroducingSecondLevelDomains/qanda

Q. Are any rights conferred on new .co.uk domains registered after the 28th October 2013, but before the launch date?

A. Yes, so long as the string wasn’t registered in another suffix on 28th October 2013, in which case that other suffix will get the right to the .uk over the subsequent .co.uk registration. However, if that other suffix is then cancelled between 28th Oct 2013 and the launch date, the .co.uk registered inside the same period will get the right to the .uk.

That again is a conflict to the other quotes, this one says, yes, the .co.uk does have rights to the .UK, but only if another suffix wasn't already registered before Oct 28th, but if it was a .co.uk domain dropping on Nov 10th, that means it was in contention before Oct 28th, and even though it drops after the cut off point, it's still entitled to the .UK

It's ok though, as Nominet will be bringing a new tool out in 3 months time, that will tell you who is entitled to what.

 

[Edwin]

Sorry Edwin, they don't to me, one quote says, if a .co.uk domain qualified on Oct 28th, if it is then cancelled and re-registered prior to launch, the .UK rights still goes to the .co.uk

The other quote says, If a .co.uk is registered after the 28th October 2013 it will only get the .UK if there are no other contesting domains.

There are conflicts, in the second quote, it doesn't say whether the .co.uk was a fresh reg that hadn't been registered before, because it if had been registered previously, then according to the first quote, it would be entitled the the .UK, but not according to the second quote.

They're two different ways of saying the same thing.

Regarding the first quote, ALL .co.uk that exist on 28 October 2013 qualify. That means that if example.co.uk exists on 28 October 2013, it is the ONLY qualifier (there's no second place system)

In the case of .co.uk only, there's an additional "bonus" in that this qualification is preserved even if the .co.uk drops and is re-registered after 28 October 2013. This special bonus only applies to qualified .co.uk domains, and to no other domains.

Now take the second quote.

If a .org.uk was the winner on 28 October 2013 (because there was no .co.uk registered on that day) then that .org.uk is the qualified domain.

The .org.uk remains qualified unless it drops. If it drops, then there are no qualified domains (remember, there's no "second chance" system in place)

In that case, a .co.uk can qualify.

So a .co.uk can qualify in the following cases:
- It existed on 28 October 2013 and is continuously registered until launch
- It existed on 28 October 2013, therefore "qualified" then drops (therefore leaving a "no contesting domain" situation) and is re-registered (.co.uk can qualify after 28 October 2013 if there are no contesting domains)
- A .org.uk qualified on 28 October 2013, but drops between then and launch, leaving a "no contesting domain" situation). A .co.uk is then registered/re-registered (doesn't matter)

A .org.uk can qualify in the following case:
- It existed on 28 October 2013, no .co.uk existed on 28 October 2013, and the .org.uk remains continuously registered until launch

 

[Edwin]

The easiest way of summing it all up (I know it's still complicated - sorry!):

1) The "qualified domain" is determined based on the contending registrations that exist on 28 October 2013. There will only be ONE qualifier for any .uk, i.e. no second place system. To determine the 28 October 2013 qualifier, .co.uk wins. If no .co.uk, then .org.uk wins.

2) If the "qualified domain" (regardless of extension) remains registered through to launch, it will get the .uk.

3) If the qualified domain (regardless of extension) drops before launch, it loses its entitlement. This leaves no qualifying domain.

4) A .co.uk can qualify any time after 28 October 2013 if and only if the "coast is clear". The coast becomes clear if 3) happens
- That means that a .co.uk can qualify if there was a .co.uk qualified on 28 October 2013 that drops and then gets re-registered (at the point it drops, the coast becomes clear since the "blocking" .co.uk was deleted)
- That means that a .co.uk can qualify if a .org.uk qualified on 28 October 2013 then drops between then and launch (at the point it drops, the coast becomes clear since the "blocking" .org.uk was deleted)
- That means that a .co.uk can qualify if any other domain qualified on 28 October 2013 then drops between then and launch (at the point it drops, the coast becomes clear since the "blocking" domain was deleted)

5) Non-.co.uk domains cannot qualify after 28 October 2013 under any circumstances i.e. if they weren't the winner on 28 October 2013, they can't become the winner after 28 October 2013

6) If the "coast is clear" on launch day, then regardless of what domain used to qualify previously, the .uk will go to general availability

 

[Stephen]

brand new .co.uk eligable for .uk

Thanks for posting but it appears to me, if a post 28 10 13 .co.uk gets registered and there was no UK domains registered on 28 10 2013 then they would qualify for .uk at launch?

Q. Who exactly will be offered the shorter .uk domain?

A. Anyone can register a new .uk domain from launch.

However, we want to look after our existing customers, so holders of the following domains will be offered the shorter .uk equivalent of their current domain (provided they maintain their current registration until they take up the .uk):
1. All domains that were current on 28th October 2013 where there was no other corresponding third level domain registered.
2. Where there are two or more domains with the same string the .co.uk will be offered the .uk equivalent, and
where there is no .co.uk, the .org.uk will be offered the .uk equivalent.

3. All .co.uk domains registered after 28th October 2013 and before the new domains are launched (as long as there is no ‘clash’ with any domains meeting the criteria above).

 

[Edwin]

Thanks for posting but it appears to me, if a post 28 10 13 .co.uk gets registered and there was no UK domains registered on 28 10 2013 then they would qualify for .uk at launch?

That's not incompatible with what I said.

I wrote:

4) A .co.uk can qualify any time after 28 October 2013 if and only if the "coast is clear".

By definition, if "example" doesn't exist in any of the qualifying UK namespace extensions right now, the "coast is clear" and registering example.co.uk would put you in line for the .uk.

 

[Stephen]

extra bit

That's not incompatible with what I said.

By definition, if "example" doesn't exist in any of the qualifying UK namespace extensions right now, the "coast is clear" and registering example.co.uk would put you in line for the .uk.

Sorry I also read the extra bit ; "The coast becomes clear if 3) happens"

 

[Edwin]

Sorry I also read the extra bit ; "The coast becomes clear if 3) happens"

That's how it becomes clear. In the case of no domain at all, it's already clear

 

[timter51]

Are you 100% sure on this now Edwin, or do we still need absolute clarification from Nominet? I have a few .co.uks in the grey zone (caught after 28th Oct) that I don't want to start marketing before I know I can promote them with the .uk priority.

 

[AssetDomains]

Are you 100% sure on this now Edwin, or do we still need absolute clarification from Nominet? I have a few .co.uks in the grey zone (caught after 28th Oct) that I don't want to start marketing before I know I can promote them with the .uk priority.

Yep its right

Have a look at the email Denys published and then the Q&A
http://blog.domainlore.co.uk/co-uk-uk-transition.html

.co.uk that were first in line pre drop re-granted rights after drop as log as there reregistered before launch

 

[Edwin]

Are you 100% sure on this now Edwin, or do we still need absolute clarification from Nominet? I have a few .co.uks in the grey zone (caught after 28th Oct) that I don't want to start marketing before I know I can promote them with the .uk priority.

Not 100%, only because I'm not a spokesman for Nominet, but they've tightened the Q&A (no changes, just clearer text and more detail) several times over the last 72 hours and it seems easier to follow now. Here's their document http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-participate/policy-development/IntroducingSecondLevelDomains/qanda

The relevant answers are:

Who exactly will be offered the shorter .uk domain?

Anyone can register a new .uk domain from launch.

However, we want to look after our existing customers, so holders of the following domains will be offered the shorter .uk equivalent of their current domain (provided they maintain their current registration until they take up the .uk):

All domains that were current on 28th October 2013 where there was no other corresponding third level domain registered.
Where there are two or more domains with the same string:
the .co.uk will be offered the .uk equivalent, and
where there is no .co.uk, the .org.uk will be offered the .uk equivalent.
All .co.uk domains registered after 28th October 2013 and before the new domains are launched (as long as there is no ‘clash’ with any domains meeting the criteria above).

If there is a clash, and the domain registrant with the rights to the .uk domain doesn’t want it (or if their domain registration drops) is the other registrant offered ‘second choice’ before the domain goes on the open market?

No. There is no ‘second choice’ mechanism.

Are any rights conferred on new non-co.uk domains registered after the 28th October 2013?

No.

Are any rights conferred on new .co.uk domains registered after the 28th October 2013, but before the launch date?

Yes, so long as the string wasn’t registered in another suffix on 28th October 2013, in which case that other suffix will get the right to the .uk over the subsequent .co.uk registration. However, if that other suffix is then cancelled between 28th Oct 2013 and the launch date, the .co.uk registered inside the same period will get the right to the .uk.

How will you address the clashes not involving a .co.uk registrant that existed on 28th October 2013?

If there is no .co.uk involved in the clash, we will give the right to the .uk domain name to the .org.uk.

What happens if the domain with the rights to .uk, among the non-co.uk clashes, drops between 28th Oct 2013 and launch?

The right to the .uk is lost.

What happens if a brand new uncontested .org.uk is registered between 28th Oct 2013 and launch and then a day later so is the .co.uk – who gets rights?

The .co.uk domain registrant gets the right to the .uk.

What happens if a contested .org.uk and a .co.uk exist on the 28th of October (so the .co.uk gets the right to the .uk), but between then and the launch the .co.uk drops and is registered by someone else – who gets the right to the .uk?

The new .co.uk registrant gets the right to the .uk.

Unless I messed up somewhere along the line, the above answers should - when combined - map to the scenario I outlined earlier in the thread.

 

[tifosi]

Are you 100% sure on this now Edwin, or do we still need absolute clarification from Nominet? I have a few .co.uks in the grey zone (caught after 28th Oct) that I don't want to start marketing before I know I can promote them with the .uk priority.

Key to the caught after 28/10 is the fact that they existed as registered .co.uk domains on 28/10 and so are the qualifying domain. So long as they are re-registered in .co.uk form between 28/10 & launch they qualify.

If the .co.uk wasn't registered on 28/10 i.e. dropped on 27/10 and then re-registered on 1/11 then it only qualifies if no other contested domain on 28/10.

In reality all Nominet are going to do just before launch is to test - for each 'string' - if a .co.uk domain exists AND it existed end of 28/10. If so it qualifies. If not and a .org.uk exists (and existed 28/10) then that qualifies... and so on down the 3rd level tlds.

 

[timter51]

This is all excellent news, thanks guys.

 

[Edwin]

In reality all Nominet are going to do just before launch is to test - for each 'string' - if a .co.uk domain exists AND it existed end of 28/10. If so it qualifies. If not and a .org.uk exists (and existed 28/10) then that qualifies... and so on down the 3rd level tlds.

I don't think they'll do it that way, otherwise their stated algorithm for determining .uk allocation would break under a scenario in which a qualified .org.uk drops between 28/10 and launch, but gets re-regged before launch. If they do a simple test like you're suggesting, they'll miss some edge cases. But it's all just fiddling with SQL queries against their database in any - not particularly hard.

 

[Edwin]

I wonder how many instances there were of .{me|ltd|plc}.uk domain names registered prior to 23:59:59 on 28th October 2013 where no matching .co.uk or .org.uk registration existed. Those instances could be in the single digits. I don't believe Nominet has decided what to do in those limited circumstances. It would make any decision even more difficult if a matching instance of only a .me.uk and a .ltd.uk existed prior to 23:59:59 on 28th October 2013. Fortunately I doubt there are many instances of that at all.

If it's only 1 extension, that extension will get it. For example, if there was a .me.co.uk but no .co.uk or .org.uk then the .me.uk will get it. If there was a ltd.co.uk but no .co.uk or .org.uk then likewise.

Where things get sticky, as you pointed out, is if there are more than 1 minor extensions yet neither .org.uk nor .co.uk domains. For example, both .me.uk AND .ltd.uk but no .co.uk or .org.uk...

Perhaps the secret is that there aren't any at all? Only Nominet know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.