.uk And Drop Catching - Anti-gaming measures:

[Edwin]

They said it on their site that it was for businesses to be able to schedule their rebranding - signages etc - and that most businesses would do that as a normal business process during that time, which is a reasonable assumption imo.

My discussions with end user business owners support that. While there was no concensus on exactly how long is "long enough" they all told me that 6 months was ludicrously short.

As Nominet noted, many businesses go through a brand refresh or rebrand periodically anyway, so 5 years will allow for them to incorporate .uk into that normal process and minimise their additional costs.

Also worth noting that it "saves" nearly 19 pounds vs the 6 month period if you choose to exercise the right to the .uk at the very end of the 5 year period.

In other words, it would have cost you 19 pounds (wholesale) to warehouse each domain name for the 4.5 year difference between the V2 proposal and the final release mechanism.

Taken over a large portfolio, that's potentially a commercially very significant saving.

 

[Edwin]

It will be interesting if nominet release the .uk's once the .co.uk or oldest option is gone rather than hold for 5 yrs.

The wording in one of the FAQ questions suggested that they would i.e. post launch, as soon as the "blocking" registration disappears for any reason, the corresponding .uk gets released for first come first served registration.

 

[anthony]

...Taken over a large portfolio, that's potentially a commercially very significant saving.

That's a good point, for the portfolio owners in particular I can see how it helps them out a lot.

 

[Edwin]

That's a good point, for the portfolio owners in particular I can see how it helps them out a lot.

Yeah. You can do the math from my regular forum signature

 

[cm1975]

I can appreciate the costs involved for large portfolio owners, but IF .uk is a success and companies look to re-brand within the 5 year period, then that is surely the time at which this may be more open to a complete change in domain, as opposed to a straight shift from their .co.uk to .uk. If a portfolio owner is not seen to have the .uk variant of the domain, could it potentially be a lost sale?

I guess that could depend on your most common route to sale (ie. Website enquiry vs Sedo vs WhoIs vs ???) and the type of buyer (ie. End User vs Reseller/Domainer).

Again, IF .uk becomes a success, then the cost of the £19 for the .uk is not as significant, as the cost to retain the .co.uk. (ie. Having the .uk is a positive thing and the renewal costs of the co.uk are the burden.)

It should prove to be an interesting few years to see if/when large websites look to adopt .uk, trying to gauge the right time to take the plunge and what happens to those "old" co.uk domains.

 

[Edwin]

An interesting addition to Nominet's Q&A about .uk http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-participate/policy-development/IntroducingSecondLevelDomains/qanda

What happens if a contested .org.uk and a .co.uk exist on the 28th of October (so the .co.uk gets the right to the .uk), but between then and the launch the .co.uk drops and is registered by someone else – who gets the right to the .uk?

The new .co.uk registrant gets the right to the .uk.

So it sounds like drop catching is still going to convey rights to the .uk in certain circumstances, even now...

(BTW, there are about half a dozen new question/answer pairs in the document - none of them represent a change of policy, but they're there to clarify aspects of the .uk scheme)

 

[arkvard]

How do I find out if a domain gets the rights to the .uk?

We’re creating an online tool that will show whether a domain name (whether it currently exists or not) will get the right to the .uk equivalent. We expect to make this available in early 2014.

Good to see they will have a tool available early 2014 so you can see who gets the right.

 

[grantw]

I'm beginning to think they're making these rules up as the questions come in!

Grant

 

[cm1975]

An interesting addition to Nominet's Q&A about .uk http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-participate/policy-development/IntroducingSecondLevelDomains/qanda

So it sounds like drop catching is still going to convey rights to the .uk in certain circumstances, even now...

(BTW, there are about half a dozen new question/answer pairs in the document - none of them represent a change of policy, but they're there to clarify aspects of the .uk scheme)

Oh that's interesting .... so if we use sparkly.co.uk as an example, as it has been used on AD previously, does this now mean that sparkly.co.uk would get sparkly.uk??

sparkly.co.uk dropped and caught on 13-Nov-2013
sparkly.org.uk regged 14-Oct-2013


Very interesting, thanks Edwin!

 

[grantw]

Oh that's interesting .... so if we use sparkly.co.uk as an example, as it has been used on AD previously, does this now mean that sparkly.co.uk would get sparkly.uk??

It would appear so. If you buy an available .co.uk which previously qualified for the .uk then you get the .uk - I think!

Grant

 

[Edwin]

I think if I understand the Q&A then (paraphrasing) Nominet are treating the .co.uk as the winner of .uk in ANY of the following circumstances:

- .co.uk registered prior to 28 October 2013
- .co.uk was registered prior to 28 October 2013, dropped, and re-registered before launch (in other words, it doesn't lose its eligibility)
- .co.uk registered after 28 October 2013 for which no other competing claims exist (no .org.uk with rights) - this explains the eligibility of dropped and re-regged .co.uk names (no competing claims existed at the time they dropped so they can use this rule to become eligible)

Whereas the picture for the .org.uk is as follows:
- .org.uk registered before 28 October 2013 AND no qualifying .co.uk registration
- .uk entitlement is lost if .org.uk drops between now and launch

In other words, the ONLY way the .org.uk can win is it has to both qualify for the .uk, and stay registered continuously through launch day.

It is still not entirely clear to me if there are any circumstances at all in which a .me.uk can win the right to a .uk - I don't think so

 

[Systreg]

The rules appear straight forward at first glance, but Nominet need to show examples to clarify for all instances.

For example, an org.uk was caught since Oct 28th, and on the sales page it said:

Only if you own xxxxxx.org.uk you get exclusive rights for xxxxxx.uk

The org.uk that dropped was a 1999 reg, but the .co.uk has been registered since 2003, so I assumed the .co.uk would have rights to the .UK under the .co.uk takes all if a domain is contested bwtween the 2, so I'm not sure why they stated their caught org.uk wold have rights.

I was thinking, and I'm sure I saw something similar to this written in the Nominet notes, but I could be mistaken. I think I saw it written that, if a domain with an earlier pre registration date drops, and is re-registered/caught, it still has rights to the .UK, so in this instance, the org.uk being registered since 1999, which was before the .co.uk was registered in 2003, would put the org.uk in line to get the .UK?

Maybe I was mistaken in what I read, or that's how the person selling the org.uk has interpreted the Nominet rules has come to that conclusions, I don't know, definitely need some proper examples from Nominet rather than words

What happens if a contested .org.uk and a .co.uk exist on the 28th of October (so the .co.uk gets the right to the .uk), but between then and the launch the .co.uk drops and is registered by someone else – who gets the right to the .uk?

The new .co.uk registrant gets the right to the .uk.

That's another interesting one, so, if an org.uk is registered in 2005, and a .co.uk is registered in 2002, the .co.uk still exists right up until it's deleted so it's still in contention with the org.uk, so if the .co.uk drops on November 10th 2013 and is caught/registered, the new .co.uk owner has rights to the .UK?

 

[AssetDomains]

Oh that's interesting .... so if we use sparkly.co.uk as an example, as it has been used on AD previously, does this now mean that sparkly.co.uk would get sparkly.uk??

sparkly.co.uk dropped and caught on 13-Nov-2013
sparkly.org.uk regged 14-Oct-2013


Very interesting, thanks Edwin!

That's the way I read it .co.uk drops before launch now get right to .uk

Denys published an update to his blog with the email from nom confirming this

http://blog.domainlore.co.uk/co-uk-uk-transition.html

 

[cm1975]

I think if I understand the Q&A then (paraphrasing) Nominet are treating the .co.uk as the winner of .uk in ANY of the following circumstances:

- .co.uk registered prior to 28 October 2013
- .co.uk was registered prior to 28 October 2013, dropped, and re-registered before launch (in other words, it doesn't lose its eligibility)
- .co.uk registered after 28 October 2013 for which no other competing claims exist (no .org.uk with rights) - this explains the eligibility of dropped and re-regged .co.uk names (no competing claims existed at the time they dropped so they can use this rule to become eligible)

Whereas the picture for the .org.uk is as follows:
- .org.uk registered before 28 October 2013 AND no qualifying .co.uk registration
- .uk entitlement is lost if .org.uk drops between now and launch

It is still not entirely clear to me if there are any circumstances at all in which a .me.uk can win the right to a .uk - I don't think so

That should put a smile of a few more people's faces and a frown on a few others.

It seems to shut out anyone that regged org.uk domains to get the .uk prior to a co.uk dropcatch.

 

[Edwin]

That's another interesting one, so, if an org.uk is registered in 2005, and a .co.uk is registered in 2002, the .co.uk still exists right up until it's deleted so it's still in contention with the org.uk, so if the .co.uk drops on November 10th 2013 and is caught/registered, the new .co.uk owner has rights to the .UK?

Correct, I think.

Basically, there's no "queue" mechanism. There's a single "this domain has rights" box and only one domain name can fit into it. Domains were allocated to boxes on 28 October 2013, such that each potential .uk has either:
A) An empty box
B) A box with the .co.uk in it
C) A box with the .org.uk in it

- If the box has a .co.uk in it, the .co.uk wins
- If the box is empty, any .co.uk registration between now and launch will go into the box and the .co.uk wins
- If the box contains a .org.uk, it has to stay in the box until launch to remain qualified
- It is not possible to put a .org.uk into the box after 28 October 2013 - if it's not in there already, it will never get in.

 

[Edwin]

It seems to shut out anyone that regged org.uk domains to get the .uk prior to a co.uk dropcatch.

Yes, it looks practically tailor-made for that purpose, don't you think?

Whatever your feelings about Nominet, they have plenty of savvy people on their team, and they probably burnt a lot of midnight oil trying to figure out how to shut the door on obvious "gaming" of the final release mechanism.

 

[cm1975]

Yes, it looks practically tailor-made for that purpose, don't you think?

It certainly takes the bad luck out of the allocation of the .UK. Some would have "lost out" just because of the selection of a particular date.

I think it also means someone on the inside couldn't have used any prior knowledge to get an unfair advantage. ie. A type of insider trading.

 

[Edwin]

I think it also means someone on the inside couldn't have used any prior knowledge to get an unfair advantage. ie. A type of insider trading.

Yes, in the same way that the selection of 28 October 2013 did (preventing anyone going to the Board meeting from benefitting from its outcome). Nominet don't want to expose themselves to the systemic risk of potential accusations of insider trading, any more than any other company would want to.

 

[Systreg]

@ Edwin, someone has posted a link to Denys blog above since my last post, on there, Denys was posing the same question, Nominet emailed him this answer:

If a .co.uk domain name qualified for the rights to the .uk domain name on the 28th of October and was subsequently cancelled, the rights to the .uk domain name are lost. However, if the .co.uk is re-registered prior to the launch, the rights are then given to the registrant of the .co.uk.

This is an issue that has already been raised by a few parties and further clarity in the ‘Questions & Answers’ section on our web site will be made available shortly.

Aaron posted a comment saying he had heard back from Nominet, basically asking the same question, and they said:

If a .co.uk is registered after the 28th October 2013 it will only get right of refusal if there are NO other contesting domains (.org.uk,.me.uk etc).

Everything is very unclear regarding these rules.

 

[Edwin]

Your two quotes above agree with each other. If a non-.co.uk domain wasn't in contention on 28 October 2013, it can NEVER be in contention.

.org.uk, .me.uk etc. can ONLY be in contention for .uk if they were the "winner" on 28 October 2013 AND remain registered continuously until launch. If both stipulations apply, you can drop/rereg the .co.uk a hundred times and that won't change.

If a .co.uk won on 28 October 2013, it will continue to win through to launch, regardless of whether it drops or not (so long as it is "live" at launch, the rights that were conferred on 28 October 2013 are preserved)

If nothing won on 28 October 2013, then
- If a .co.uk is registered between then and launch, it wins the .uk
- If nothing is registered between then and launch, domain goes to general availability
- If a non-.co.uk is registered between then and launch, but no .co.uk, domain goes to general availability

The rules seem designed to protect the commercial extension first and foremost, but with a mechanism that will give a small but still meaningful number of .org.uk holders the opportunity to get a .uk on the back of their registrations.