The new Real Time DAC

[packeted]

I've been keeping an eye on things, and reading the nom-steer replies on the new DAC tools paper and to be honest I don't like the look of how things are heading and some of the narrow minded views being expressed on there about the secondary domain market.

I imagine there are hundreds of Nominet members on here, who just like me have been quite happy to sit back and go along with the flow but all of this talk makes me want to take some action.

Not knowing much of the politics behind Nominet is there anyone who would be willing to represent the broad views of us domainers so as members we can throw some weight behind them?

 

[retired_member9]

I asked the question and the reply was:

"With regards to maintaining domain names on your tag however, full details regarding any domain names on your tag can be obtained through the Automaton's query, list or bulk operations."

I thought Nominet developed EPP to migrate from Automaton and provide better and faster realtime access for registrars. Nominet encouraged to use EPP and so many rewrote their registration systems to function without Automaton e-mailings. Now what? Back to apes?

It is evident Nominet has being badly pissed off by domainers community, likely by the stir caused by now resigned directors, who represented our minority.

 

[GreyWing]

Not knowing much of the politics behind Nominet is there anyone who would be willing to represent the broad views of us domainers so as members we can throw some weight behind them?

There is mate, there are a few of us starting to get a bit pee'd off with the leadership over the last few months.

I can't remember the name of Andrew's site which is pretty good but mine is ebout.co.uk and maybe we can get better organised and get a figure head to represent not just us, but the membership again.

 

[GreyWing]

Someone or some people at Nominet either completely underestimated the reaction of changing the T&Cs, possibly due to the fact that it simply didn't occur to them (after all Nominet don't build lists), in which case they need to engage further with Registrars who work in that area, or they knew full well how the changes would impact certain sectors but haven't come out and said they did or why they made the changes.

If it was the first option mate I'm sure or pretty sure they would have popped on to Nom-Steer and said we are looking in to it, and we are delaying to change in T&C's until it's sorted or consulted on further.

 

[packeted]

There is mate, there are a few of us starting to get a bit pee'd off with the leadership over the last few months.

I can't remember the name of Andrew's site which is pretty good but mine is ebout.co.uk and maybe we can get better organised and get a figure head to represent not just us, but the membership again.

I would love to see us get something together. I'm sure there are many like me who have little time to get involved in politics but don't want to see our freedoms gradually eroded away for some ulterior motive.

So what we need is 1) someone who represents the mainstream views of UK domainers and is willing to put time and effort in to engage with Nominet to bring about change 2) an easy way of members getting behind this person/the views they represent ? by means of a petition, standardised letter to Nominet etc..

What do people think?

 

[GreyWing]

So what we need is 1) someone who represents the mainstream views of UK domainers and is willing to put time and effort in to engage with Nominet to bring about change 2) an easy way of members getting behind this person/the views they represent ? by means of a petition, standardised letter to Nominet etc..

What do people think?

It's going to take for Nominet members to get involved and vote accordingly. Petitions from end users or domain holders won't get them to budge. The board are banking on the fact that members can't be bothered or can't get organised. Up until now, they have been right.

 

[packeted]

So as a Nominet member what is the best way to get involved?

 

[monaghan]

Any idea of the number of Nominet members here? Is there sufficient to stand together and achieve anything?

 

[GreyWing]

Just hold firm at minute mate, maybe a few others will post in here and maybe there will be more of an appetite for action this time.

But keep popping back on here and I'll ask around and see what others think.

 

[packeted]

According to Nominet's members list there are 4311 tags out there.
I'd imagine there are at least a hundred that you could recruit on here, if not more. You only have to look at the number of different tags dropcatching these days..

 

[packeted]

I see where you're coming from... But equally I have made some excellent Tag holder contacts on here, and think this is probably an issue that could unite a lot of the so-called in fighters..... I agree that it should be an open dialogue rather than a confrontational approach.

What about the members of the PAB?
Much to my surprise the elected members are predominantly "domainers"... Can we not look to one of these members to represent our views? I also note they have a meeting on the 18th March...

 

[tifosi]

I don't have a super solution because there isn't one. The only solution is open dialogue. Whilst T&Cs keep being changed without proper consultation and the secondary market has participants that hold the belief that Nominet management, and whomever else, is out to close them down then those secondary market participants will remain quite hostile. Equally whilst the secondary market appears to have a few loud mouths that shout and scream, and act unprofessionally, and no other representatives, nobody in any other sector of the industry will take them seriously either!

I think that sums it up unfortunately.

The only way forward I can see is to act professionally and maintain a dignified challenge to the changes. It's not just UK members who will be affected but members on most continents.

Until there is definitive answer from the Nominet executive to explain the changes in particular the removal of clause 5.2.1 in the original DAC contract and the extraction of the suspended status from the RT DAC then there is not much else to do apart from lodge an appeal through the channels Andrew (whoissearch) has mentioned, a reply to the official email, reply to the website address on the dac page, and to pab-suggest.

If there is no high-level explanation, not withstanding the odd comment on nom-steer and email replies from technical/membership admin assistants, then that would be an answer in itself.

An official statement is required if trust is to be regained, or at least not fractured further. I'm sure the BBER is watching and that in some way this is a response to Nominet's concerns at executive level.

S

 

[rob]

The problem is that anyone with any sense who engages in the secondary market won't do it because the secondary market has been fractured for so long now. If the secondary market had been left to market forces, all the way back in 2004 when the anti-avoidance rules were introduced, there would have been a resource race and a consolidation with services similar to Snapnames and Pool.com springing up. Back then Snapnames looked into doing a .uk service but it wasn't viable because they couldn't combine the resources of multiple memberships, due to the anti avoidance rules, to get any sort of competitive advantage. As a result many smaller secondary market players were able to establish themselves, many with their own individual ideas and standards. Pretty soon we started to see people using friends, relatives or anonymous companies to establish multiple memberships. When that starts, others playing by the rules get "upset" and pretty soon more and more people start to accuse each other of cheating one way or another in a snowball effect. The result is a fractured market where few people trust each other. We do have groups of people who communicate but many keep themselves to themselves because it is easier to get on and do ones own thing. Since the barrier to entry into the secondary market has always been pretty low, those who were established didn't really want to be associated with some of the newer entrants; particularly ones who didn't really want to put in the work that they had to.

There have been a couple of attempts at an "industry body" but you won't find many of the old crowd having anything to do with it because they don't want to be associated under some kind of "domainer label" and grouped in with others that appear to have similar, yet still subtly different, business models. Those that have shouted the loudest over the past two years, in the name of the secondary market, and sometimes claiming that they represented its participants to some degree, are actually some of the least technically aware and least clued up people that the secondary market could have hoped to have had represent it. Unfortunately nobody with any better standing was prepared to do it so those who shouted the loudest, perhaps because shouting loud is about all they are good at, appeared as pseudo reps.

Whilst the secondary market barrier for entry remains low, those who have become most established in that market won't want to be associated with the lesser established participants. Nominet may realise this, and it may even suit them, or they may simply look at the secondary market and think "what a bunch of selfish infighters" but haven't really thought about WHY that is the case. Nominet helped to make the secondary market the way that it is today, with their anti avoidance rules and other introductions all those years ago. What I don't feel they engage in enough on some occasions is open dialogue and because they haven't done enough of this, those that they should have engaged with have become conditioned to not being party to decisions that affect their businesses. Instead they have coded around changes and accepted them in the belief that they had best just get on with trying to do business because they couldn't make a difference if they wanted to (summary: what Nominet wants to do it will do regardless).

I don't believe the infighting within the secondary market will ever be solved while the barrier for entry remains as low as it is. I also don't believe that the most successful and/or longest established participants will want to publicly represent the secondary market whilst that market is fractured into pieces, with different participants engaging in all sorts of different business practices. Nobody with any reputation will want to put their neck on the line without any powers to curtail or reign in everyone in the secondary market; because one bad apple spoils the barrel. Those against the secondary market know this and will continue to use any bad apples as ammo to try to shut it down because the business models employed within it do not fit their ideal of how domain names should be distributed. Unfortunately what some aren't able to see is that Genie isn't ever going to go back in the bottle.

I don't have a super solution because there isn't one. The only solution is open dialogue. Whilst T&Cs keep being changed without proper consultation and the secondary market has participants that hold the belief that Nominet management, and whomever else, is out to close them down then those secondary market participants will remain quite hostile. Equally whilst the secondary market appears to have a few loud mouths that shout and scream, and act unprofessionally, and no other representatives, nobody in any other sector of the industry will take them seriously either!

E&OE

That is the best post on here for a very long time.

Just re-quoted it for the muppets who dont / cant read more than a sentance.

Sadly there isnt a blue moon outside so it probably will be ignored totally.

 

[foz]

That is the best post on here for a very long time.

Yes, but it blurs the "secondary market" with the "drop-catch market". Both are two different issue's.

 

[rob]

What about the members of the PAB?
Much to my surprise the elected members are predominantly "domainers"... Can we not look to one of these members to represent our views? I also note they have a meeting on the 18th March...

The PAB deals in Policy not operational matters.

Likewise PAB members act for everyone and do not 'represent' specific groups - however can voice specific concerns that are drawn to their attention ideally via [email protected]

I have posted before on this thread:

The PAB discusses and creates policy which is put forward to the board. The board does what it wants with that, but hopefully it takes it er, on board so to speak

The PAB has a policy on this, it was discussed and formed in 2007 - before my time - so I dont know what the full discussions were. http://www.nic.uk/digitalAssets/28809_PAB52minutes_Sept_07.pdf has information on the minutes from that meeting / who was there / what was discussed etc etc.

Once the policy is in place and agreed its up to Nominet to execute what they do inside it, its a tricky one if this is a policy issue or not.


It seems likely that this topic will be raised at least on the 18th, however harking back to 'invincible's post above, open dialogue is the way forward and any sideshows can cloud important issues.

If anyone has any concerns then voice them in a sensible and coherant manner, ideally suggesting solutions rather than pointing out pure negatives.

 

[retired_member12]

Yes, but it blurs the "secondary market" with the "drop-catch market". Both are two different issue's.

It certainly does. The secondary market needs to be fully embraced as a legitimate business model by Nominet and supported by them too, albiet with some refining, simply because its primary function seeks to provide third party/end users with domain names. This, after all, was the original objective of the Nominet/membership model, providing domain names to end users.

The fly in the ointment to be honest is the personal dropcatcher. Where he/she has become a member of Nominet and subscribed to the various services with the sole objective of grabbing 'trophy' domains for personal hoarding, they have used a relatively cheap mechanism to gain an advantage over those unfortunate, technically illiterate punters who simply would like to catch a good name, but can't. If only those punters knew that they will NEVER get a good dropping name whilst dropcatchers are functioning, and that a good name will NEVER drop through the system to them anyway.

Even the secondary market vendors are at a disadvantage, they're trying all they can to satisfy numerous clients hopeful orders each day, with hardly much more of an advantage than the clients their trying to serve, because the dropcatcher picks the one and only domain of the day, and uses their total DAC allowance going for this. 10, 20 or 50 dropcatchers all doing the same thing amounts no chance for everyone else.

When 'Bob' reports that there are areas where Nominet is failing to serve the wider community, and we all know he will, he won't be telling porkies. Yes, they've contributed to the situation they're in by poor decisions made in the past, but whether you like it or not, the Government won't give a flying f**k about that, they'll insist change is done if need be, and you won't get any say in the long run.

Nominet are possibly looking forward to unloading their 'toxic' members, with a little support from the Government. Self serving interests are no longer vogue you know! The smart cookies will be those who step forward now and try talking about what they want instead of moaning about the advantages they may lose!

 

[foz]

Are there really two distinct markets or does the former almost always encapsulate the latter? I don't want to digress from the originally issue too much. For the avoidance of doubt, when I composed the post, I really only had the issue of drop catching in mind although my use of the term "secondary market" might have clouded things by seemingly referring to wider secondary market issues. I suppose parts of the post could be relevant to other areas of the secondary market but as far as this thread goes I am not too concerned with them.

A secondary market could exist if their was no drop market. I would accept that the drop market can feed sales into the secondary market, but for the issue's raised in Nominet changing the T&C's of the DAC, it would seem to have an impact on the way drop lists are compiled, which is a critical component of drop catching.

 

[Whois-Search]

The problem is that anyone with any sense who engages in the secondary market won't do it because the secondary market has been fractured for so long now. If the secondary market had been left to market forces, all the way back in 2004 when the anti-avoidance rules were introduced, there would have been a resource race and a consolidation with services similar to Snapnames and Pool.com springing up. Back then Snapnames looked into doing a .uk service but it wasn't viable because they couldn't combine the resources of multiple memberships, due to the anti avoidance rules, to get any sort of competitive advantage. As a result many smaller secondary market players were able to establish themselves, many with their own individual ideas and standards. Pretty soon we started to see people using friends, relatives or anonymous companies to establish multiple memberships. When that starts, others playing by the rules get "upset" and pretty soon more and more people start to accuse each other of cheating one way or another in a snowball effect. The result is a fractured market where few people trust each other. We do have groups of people who communicate but many keep themselves to themselves because it is easier to get on and do ones own thing. Since the barrier to entry into the secondary market has always been pretty low, those who were established didn't really want to be associated with some of the newer entrants; particularly ones who didn't really want to put in the work that they had to.

There have been a couple of attempts at an "industry body" but you won't find many of the old crowd having anything to do with it because they don't want to be associated under some kind of "domainer label" and grouped in with others that appear to have similar, yet still subtly different, business models. Those that have shouted the loudest over the past two years, in the name of the secondary market, and sometimes claiming that they represented its participants to some degree, are actually some of the least technically aware and least clued up people that the secondary market could have hoped to have had represent it. Unfortunately nobody with any better standing was prepared to do it so those who shouted the loudest, perhaps because shouting loud is about all they are good at, appeared as pseudo reps.

Whilst the secondary market barrier for entry remains low, those who have become most established in that market won't want to be associated with the lesser established participants. Nominet may realise this, and it may even suit them, or they may simply look at the secondary market and think "what a bunch of selfish infighters" but haven't really thought about WHY that is the case. Nominet helped to make the secondary market the way that it is today, with their anti avoidance rules and other introductions all those years ago. What I don't feel they engage in enough on some occasions is open dialogue and because they haven't done enough of this, those that they should have engaged with have become conditioned to not being party to decisions that affect their businesses. Instead they have coded around changes and accepted them in the belief that they had best just get on with trying to do business because they couldn't make a difference if they wanted to (summary: what Nominet wants to do it will do regardless).

I don't believe the infighting within the secondary market will ever be solved while the barrier for entry remains as low as it is. I also don't believe that the most successful and/or longest established participants will want to publicly represent the secondary market whilst that market is fractured into pieces, with different participants engaging in all sorts of different business practices. Nobody with any reputation will want to put their neck on the line without any powers to curtail or reign in everyone in the secondary market; because one bad apple spoils the barrel. Those against the secondary market know this and will continue to use any bad apples as ammo to try to shut it down because the business models employed within it do not fit their ideal of how domain names should be distributed. Unfortunately what some aren't able to see is that Genie isn't ever going to go back in the bottle.

I don't have a super solution because there isn't one. The only solution is open dialogue. Whilst T&Cs keep being changed without proper consultation and the secondary market has participants that hold the belief that Nominet management, and whomever else, is out to close them down then those secondary market participants will remain quite hostile. Equally whilst the secondary market appears to have a few loud mouths that shout and scream, and act unprofessionally, and no other representatives, nobody in any other sector of the industry will take them seriously either!

E&OE

Sorry to have to say it guys but David is right.

I've tried to setup the UKDNA however the industry is so fragmented no one can lead from the front of it. This is why the smaller 'secondary market' meetings work better between smaller 'pockets' of people spread out over the country.

Also in the UK we haven't got people like Michael Collins, Jeremiah Johnson, Rick Latona, Rick Schwartz, Frank Schilling and so on.... No one is willing to pull together resources, time, effort and money to even stand a chance of respresenting the UK secondary market in a good light.

Instead we on this forum (their must be 20 Nominet members in this thread alone) get called a "den of vipers" on nom-steer!

Even if you called an EGM on this issue it would only make then situation worse - then the government would acutally step in and regulation would follow. It doesn't stop you using your vote at the AGM though and voting for people who you think would support the secondary market.

Therefore...

In my opinion the only thing to do from now on is to lobby the top 10 registrars and the big "secondary market" companies like Sedo and even Yahoo/Google into doing something about it.

Given the size of Schlund + Partner AG 1,369,459 they might get 2.5 million lookups on the Time Delay DAC for public facing order processes.....however what happens to their bottom line when we are all not listing/parking names on Sedo? Even hosting sales will be affected as we are not developing names. How can even DomCollect Worldwide Intellectual Property AG get around the DAC T&Cs and continue to catch .uk domains?

 

[foz]

5.2.1. compile a list of .uk domain names together with their expiry date or other data from the DAC query provided that such list comprises information about less than 1,000 domain names and is not retained by you for a period greater than 90 days and (optionally) use that list for providing services to your existing clients

Giving more thought to this. Would it not be possible to compile "keywords" rather than "domain names". By removing the extension it is no longer a "domain name". A suggestion to a "drop date" could be referred to as well.

 

[monaghan]

Giving more thought to this. Would it not be possible to compile "keywords" rather than "domain names". By removing the extension it is no longer a "domain name". A suggestion to a "drop date" could be referred to as well.

I only hold keywords and transform these into whichever domain name I want by adding a TLD, again drop dates are estimates based on the information to hand, so by my reading of the revised T&C's I'm only in breach if I store more than 1000 processed keywords & dates as a drop list.

I guess this makes me OK for personal use, however, I have a number of customers who don't have the facility to pull all this data together themselves, I loose a bit of revenue by not supplying, but they loose a very useful resource to their business worth far more than the few quid I make out of it.

The thing that frustrates me is that those who mine the whois for data and sell the whole (domaintools and such like) lot are not being targetted and there's not even a mention of hitting them. If we were the 1st wave of a published "clean up" plan then all well and good, but we seem to be just a target.