EU Referendum

[martin-s]

The important thing to note about the benefits ruling is that the European commission was challenging the UK's stance. This is the sort of sovereignty that I want back. It should be up to our Government to decide what rules our benefits system follows.

The EU shouldn't have any right to challenge it.

 

[websaway]

No. The EU ruled in favour of the UK government this morning. No idea what you thought you read...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...enefits-to-unemployed-eu-migrants-judges-rule

It wasn't the EU , the EU commission put the case against us. It was the European court of justice who ruled in favour.
It will be challenged again and what a palava to do something we should be able to do in our own country through our own parliamentary system. I think this is typical of why we should leave. I thought immigrants didn't claim benefits so it's a hollow victory anyway.

 

[websaway]

"Conservative employment spokesman in the European Parliament Anthea McIntyre MEP said: “This is a victory for the UK and for common sense. It vindicates the prime minister’s stance, which has always been that free movement means freedom to work, not to claim benefits."

But the remain camp say migrants don't claim benefits so really what is the point of this costly case. How many lawyers at what expense and what about the appeals from Poland and other nations. No wonder Lawyers and the like don't want to give up their seat on the gravy train.

 

[websaway]

How can this be termed a victory for the UK, it's like having to ask your local council if you can sleep in your own bed.

 

[websaway]

How can this be termed a victory for the UK, it's like having to ask your local council if you can sleep in your own bed.

Just another cast iron reason we need to retain our eroding sovereignty. Do the remain camp thing we are morons.

 

[websaway]

Interesting article about Gordon Brown in the Telegraph.

I wonder if he introduces himself as the ex prime minister who wrecked the UK economy or that he works as an advisor to Pimco, one of the worlds largest asset management companies and sits on the board with the former Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke and the former president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet. Assets under management 1.5 Trillion US Dollars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...as-learnt-from-his-bigoted-woman-howler-on-i/

 

[signature]

Take housing, there isn't enough and in many councils immigrants get priority, people have had enough, many feel second class citizens in their own country.

As much as I agree with some of your points, immigrants don't get priority when it comes to housing or any form of benefits or social needs, in-fact non-EU are not entitled to any benefits or housing unless they are permanent residents(which means already lived and work in the UK for about 10 years) or British Passport holders. Other EU citizen are entitled to go on housing waiting list same as any British citizen and British citizen can also go on housing list in other EU countries if there is one.

EU benefits applies both ways, British citizen also have access to benefits in Germany, France, etc.

Asylum seekers are entitled to be looked after under the united nation convention, regardless of who the person is and where they came from, if under asylum they will have to be looked after and this include housing. The same united nation convention rule applies to UK citizen under asylum abroad.

Lack of council housing is purely government policies, if Tories have not stop councils building properties in the 80s and start selling the ones available, we will probably not be in the same situation as we are now and the housing issue is about to get worse with the new Tory policy of selling housing association properties.

These are all government policies not EU issues.

 

[Edwin]

Full text of the Vote Leave letter pledging things they're not in a position to commit to*, plus puppies and unicorns for all**
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/leave_ministers_commit_to_maintain_eu_funding

(*Common sense dictates, Priti Patel confirms...)
(**Certainly feels that way!)

 

[gimpydog]

It's beginning to look a bit grim for the 'stayers'

Can Gordon 'no more boom & bust' Brown save the world again?

I doubt it

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

 

[Sound]

Sporting index has the market all square now

http://www.sportingindex.com/spread...b-4e2b-951f-b7594fdfe4fc/uk-brexit-referendum

 

[websaway]

Full text of the Vote Leave letter pledging things they're not in a position to commit to*, plus puppies and unicorns for all**
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/leave_ministers_commit_to_maintain_eu_funding

(*Common sense dictates, Priti Patel confirms...)
(**Certainly feels that way!)

If it gets your goat up, which it seems to have done, then it should be good for the undecided.

 

[gimpydog]

Sporting index has the market all square now

Interesting that people I speak to split 2:1 in favour of 'brexit', as does the AD poll above.

National polls are 50:50, hedge funds are shorting sterling like crazy, but the bookies tend to favour 'remain'.

 

[Sound]

Interesting that people I speak to split 2:1 in favour of 'brexit', as does the AD poll above.

National polls are 50:50, hedge funds are shorting sterling like crazy, but the bookies tend to favour 'remain'.

This was 60 : 40 a few months ago for remain so has made big moves in the last few weeks

 

[Edwin]

Judging by the Twitter commentary, where she trended for nearly two hours, Priti Patel may have done more for Remain with her admission that Vote Leave's sums in their letter have no basis in reality than any of the Remain camp interventions over the last couple of weeks.

I read well over a thousand tweets, and found exactly *two* people supporting her. Normally Leave and Remain flak each other fairly evenly.

Put in topical terms, she scored an own goal, then went on to complete a hat-trick into the back of her own net.

 

[websaway]

I have not heard one debater, not politicians, industry leader or trade unions say the EU is perfect, even the most ardent remainers say it has to be reformed. But we tried to reform it and were marched out a laughing stock. There is no box on the ballot paper to tick to say stay in a reformed Europe. It's leave and risk a shallow recession or stay and lose sovereignty. Alan Johnson says we have to surrender sovereignty ( at least he's being honest ) in order to remain in the EU but as a re-educated Marxist who was a member of the British Communist party and wanted to align themselves to communist Russia . He would not mind us being a state in a United states of Europe. According to his past political beliefs democracy is not a pre requisite.

 

[websaway]

Judging by the Twitter commentary, where she trended for nearly two hours, Priti Patel may have done more for Remain with her admission that Vote Leave's sums in their letter have no basis in reality than any of the Remain camp interventions over the last couple of weeks.

I read well over a thousand tweets, and found exactly *two* people supporting her. Normally Leave and Remain flak each other fairly evenly.

Put in topical terms, she scored an own goal, then went on to complete a hat-trick into the back of her own net.

That's 998 for your side, hardly a game changer. Hope I've got the figures right but if not I'm sure you will correct me.
You are focusing on a hopeless cause, it's about Immigration and sovereignty and people do not like those who are trying to sell our precious sovereignty. Your argument to quote you is Like arguing against the reality of climate change by moaning that there's too much chewing gum on the pavement.

 

[Toonz]

This is not won. The polls could be rigged to encourage complacency

The interesting thing about knife-edge polling is that it works both ways. If Leave is seen to take the lead, it has the potential to do two things. (1) It does what you suggest and fires up the Remain side to get out there and campaign/vote. But equally, (2) it hands momentum (and a certain extra credibility) to the leading side. Momentum is a powerful thing to have on your side - it can snowball.

Out of interest, if Remain wins next week, will you believe that the poll (the actual one) was rigged?

 

[martin-s]

Full text of the Vote Leave letter pledging things they're not in a position to commit to, plus puppies and unicorns for all
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/leave_ministers_commit_to_maintain_eu_funding

You keep hitting Leave on this, but what exactly are they supposed to do? They have to be able to announce what they stand for, given the opportunity to make it happen.

When was the last manifesto you read that was implemented completely and without change? So why is this any different?

Would you acknowledge that Remain aren't really in a position to make concrete commitments either? (Not that I'm aware they've made many?)

 

[martin-s]

The ONS has a useful breakdown of figures for the UK contribution to the EU here:
http://visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-perspectives-2016-the-uk-contribution-to-the-eu-budget/

• £19.1bn nominal gross contribution (£367m per week)
• Reduced to £14.7bn after £4.4bn rebate is applied (£283m per week actually paid by the UK to the EU)
• £4.8bn is returned as investment into the UK from the Regional Development Fund and Agricultural Guarantee Fund and others.
• £0.8bn is returned as investment into private sector UK (based on a 5 year average)
• Leaving a final contribution for 2014 of approximately £9.1bn (£175m per week)

The numbers for investment into the UK seem to fluctuate. I don't believe there is any guaranteed formula of investment, more the result of bidding for funding. Most of the funding is locked in for multi-year projects (up to 2020 for the majority of current projects I believe).

For comparison, here are some figures from the 2015 budget showing allocation of UK Government funds:

• £3.6bn police services
• £5.4bn law courts
• £3.8bn prisons
• £15.8bn family welfare
• £4bn social housing
• £3.5bn unemployment welfare
• £10.6bn transport (inc £3.7bn for entire road network)

There are obviously immigration related incomes in the UK budget, from tax receipts, etc. so it stands to reason that a level of immigration would be needed to retain current inflows.

If Leave wins and we get back £9.1bn of funding, yet still keep all of the EU's investments into science, agriculture, etc. in the UK, what else could we spend it on?

 

[Edwin]

You keep hitting Leave on this, but what exactly are they supposed to do? They have to be able to announce what they stand for, given the opportunity to make it happen.

When was the last manifesto you read that was implemented completely and without change? So why is this any different?

Would you acknowledge that Remain aren't really in a position to make concrete commitments either? (Not that I'm aware they've made many?)

This is not a general election. The leave camp will not be given the opportunity to make it happen, and they have no business putting forward a manifesto since that gives the false illusion they're somehow in control of the country's destiny post-brexit. Of all the many lies that Leave is promoting , that's probably the biggest (yes, even bigger than the £350 million fantasy)

Even if the vote skewed 99% in favour of Leave, it still won't be the Leave camp making policy!

Remain haven't made any particular commitments because their camp is a vote for "no change"**. There's nothing to promise because, again, this isn't a general election. The Tory party already has an established manifesto, and will continue to enact it in the event of Remain.

That's why Remain are so furious about the way Leave are going about distorting the picture: as Tories, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Priti Patel etc are as responsible for implementing the existing, already agreed Tory manifesto as Cameron or Osborne are!

**NOTE: "no change" doesn't mean an approach to the EU frozen in amber for all time. Cameron already got some commitments to reform, some of which will be ratified by a Remain result, and others will be implemented in the following weeks and months. You can expect Cameron to continue to push to improve and reform the EU in ways that benefit the UK post-referendum, just like successive governments have over the years.