EU Referendum

[dougs]

And that from the person complaining about the £350,000,000 figure. Don't worry mate, it's chump change.

£130 million in one lump
£350 million per week

makes the £130 look like chump change

 

[bonusmedia]

My prediction: if things are still as grim in a week's time, Cameron may choose to sacrifice the Tory party (for an election cycle or two, anyway) for the good of the country and authorise massive "blue-on-blue" strikes using the plainest, bluntest possible language, until there's nobody left with a shred of credibility on either side.

Either that, or promise to resign on a "Remain" vote but stay on a "Leave" vote, to wind up the people who are treating the referendum as being about him, not our shared future in the EU (the latter's not a prediction, btw, just my little joke - he would never be selfless enough)

I would have to begrudgingly respect him for falling on his sword, even if he did unsheathe it and leave it lying around with the pointy end in the air

 

[Edwin]

£130 million in one lump
£350 million per week

makes the £130 look like chump change

£13,000,000,000,000 (EU GDP). Puts everything into perspective. If you like your astronomy, that's 130x the number of stars in the galaxy.

 

[AlistairM]

£130 million in one lump
£350 million per week

makes the £130 look like chump change

So now it is £350m per week. Their dastardly ploy seems to be working my dears.

 

[dougs]

£13,000,000,000,000 (EU GDP). Puts everything into perspective.

£18,000,000,000,000
£130,000,000

 

[websaway]

One thing that's become quite clear to me following this debate - and in particular on this forum - is how little I know about the economic argument. I'm not joking when I say that I really do feel that I shouldn't be voting on this in 2 weeks time. I agree with the Leave side that economics is not the only issue, but still, it's one hell of an important one.

I know lots of people who were quite content with the EU, like myself, never a Euro sceptic. It's only when the gloves came off and the people who have been lobbying for years were allowed to openly give their points of view, knowing it could have an effect , due to the referendum, and most of those people have weighed up the pro's and con's and have decided to vote out. The other thing that has swung it massively is being able to talk about uncontrolled immigration without feeling like a racist , which no one with any moral values wants to be.

 

[Edwin]

So now it is £350m per week. Their dastardly ploy seems to be working my dears.

Kind of proves the point. The £350 million is the "two girls, one cup" of this debate: once seen, never unseeable.

 

[websaway]

Perhaps if you were slightly less childish...

Are you sitting on Edwins knee with his hand up your .....se

 

[bonusmedia]

Are you sitting on Edwins knee with his hand up your .....se

Be quiet please

 

[websaway]

Immigration of EU members is an economic benefit, enough data on that. Irrelevant of IN or OUT this vote will be decided by people who feel that they could have done better in the world, but alas have not and it is someone else's fault. People always blame the OTHER tribe...just watch the football fighting...the colour of a shirt dictates wether you should be beaten up. Trump is riding the same wave....this I found interesting:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/trump-university-its-worse-than-you-think

I know where you are coming from and under other circumstances would agree, to a degree. It's easy to think as you are when you are in a particular position and forget that mentality is harder for others to change than you think . It's like telling the overweight people to eat less and run around more. People are often a product of their environment and that environment , often hard to escape, dictates not only what they do but what they think and obviously how they feel.
Would I be wrong to say you think . I am alright jack and I really can't be bothered. Sovereignty ? doesn't really bother me. Immigration ?guy next door to me he's got a nice new BMW seems a nice guy.

 

[websaway]

Anyway you'll all be pleased I'm knocking off, Good Luck.

 

[Toonz]

Anyway you'll all be pleased I'm knocking off,

Urban dictionary is your friend.

 

[Toonz]

Out of interest, what influence do you think Fleet St will play in the outcome of this referendum? It's long been said that they don't wield the power they once did. On the other hand, the Sun is usually on the ball when it comes to calling elections.

Today they've come out officially for Leave with a front page editorial - worth a read out of curiosity if nothing else to see what the largest circulation title is telling its readers...

I'm not convinced that their power is waning as fast as people say it is. Yes there's some fragmentation but the Sun and Mail maintain a huge reach online, even if profits are minimal, plus they still have the power to shape the news agenda for, say, the BBC and Sky News not to mention Westminster.

I suppose the question is, how many Sun readers are already Brexiters and how many are in the undecided/uninterested camp?

I fully expect the Daily Mail and Telegraph to follow suit. The Times is likely to follow its stablemate if orders have come down from Wrinkly Rupe. Only the Guardian, Mirror and FT are likely to be for Remain. (RIP printed Indie). As for the Express and Star, well, the less said about them the better.

 

[websaway]

So where are we today.
We have learned that we have two main choices.
To either leave and risk a shallow recession, if the "experts"
are correct.
Or alternatively remain and accept that we will have
to accommodate immigration increasing the population of
the Uk by the equivalent of a city the size of Birmingham every
3 or 4 years.

 

[Edwin]

I fully expect the Daily Mail and Telegraph to follow suit. The Times is likely to follow its stablemate if orders have come down from Wrinkly Rupe. Only the Guardian, Mirror and FT are likely to be for Remain. (RIP printed Indie). As for the Express and Star, well, the less said about them the better.

The Telegraph is an interesting animal. Their readership definitely profiles strongly for "Leave" (I think their poll was about 2-to-1 in favour of leaving when it was run a couple of months ago) but they do seem to have published a fair number of articles about some of the dangers inherent in leaving too. So while I agree with you that their editorial is likely to be pro-Leave, they've clearly not executed a blanket group-think order against their team of journalists like some of the tabloids seem to have.

 

[Edwin]

I'm not sure how they can crack this particular nut, but Remain really need to do a better job of calling the Leave camp out on their "proxy government" campaign.

There was another example this morning in the Vote Leave open letter saying that those in receipt of EU grants would continue to receive funding if Britain leaves the EU until 2020.

The language in it was absolutely unequivocal, and read exactly like a government pledge or policy announcement. I'm convinced many (most?) people have no idea that nothing the Vote Leave camp says "will happen" is a promise, or even an "attempt to promise" (i.e. a government policy). It's just their thinking out loud wish-list letter to Santa Cameron and the rest of the government, who are the ONLY ones who can decide what will or won't happen post-referendum. And as anyone who's ever written one of those letters knows, Santa never brings everything you wish for...

Here's a snippet of the language they're using (to make what I'm saying clearer):

If the public votes to leave on 23 June, we will continue to fund EU programmes in the UK until 2020, or up to the date when the EU is due to conclude individual programmes if that is earlier than 2020.

After protecting those now in receipt of EU funding, we will still have billions more to spend on our priorities.

We propose that at least £5.5bn of that be spent on the NHS by 2020, giving it a much-needed 100m per week cash transfusion, and to use £1.7bn to abolish VAT on household energy bills.

(It goes on in the same vein for quite a while. There are snippets of the letter across various news sites; I've not yet managed to track down the original showing everything in one place.)

 

[Edwin]

I'm not sure if it's the same letter or a different letter, but Vote Leave have made a "pledge" on maintaining Welsh EU funding this morning too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36523232

Here's reaction to the letter:

The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies, said: "Today's announcement is hugely welcome and is further evidence that Wales would be better off out of the European Union.

"Despite the first minister's fantasy claims, we now know that funding for each and every part of the UK, including Wales, would be safe if we vote to leave.

Doesn't that sound like the words of someone convinced that the letter is guaranteeing something?

 

[nameholic]

Hello Voters

I have read all 110 pages and come to the same conclusion that I started with it was bias and remains the same

Despite a very well worded piece by Edwin on page one and Others in the remain domain, again my Bias Support and Respect has to go to the soap box king Websaway the debate has been Democratic And that's what I fear we may well louse if left unchallenged http://Strongerout.uk

ps.Like the new site

 

[websaway]

The economic argument
Represented by Oliver Morrissey, School of Economics, whose research interests include trade policy and the political economy of policy reform.

“Immigration is one of the main reasons for the referendum. For centuries, Britain has welcomed immigrants. While it’s economically successful, we can absorb them and they provide a net benefit. But that’s the past. It’s becoming harder to get full-time, well-paid stable employment - an increasing proportion of the labour force is in low-wage, temporary, zero-hour contracts. Immigration is a factor in causing that – as well as creating pressure on the education and health systems. People want some degree of regulation – the fact that the EU prevents that is a legitimate reason to vote to leave.
“It’s misleading to claim there won’t be costs for trade, but it’s equally misleading to claim these costs will be large. If Britain leaves the EU it will have to renegotiate existing trading relations with countries around the world that have been negotiated as part of the European Union. However, as the fifth largest economy in the world it’s likely to be in the interests of Britain’s trading partners to look for an agreement that is more or less a continuation of the existing relationship. There are structures within the WTO that would help that to happen. The US would find that of interest, as would many other nations – they don’t want the unnecessary extra costs of renegotiation.
“Put simply, the EU is not working. It’s not working on its economic policy, it’s got a deficit of democracy and a surfeit of regulation. It’s too rigid and not flexible enough. If Britain votes to exit, it’s the wakeup call the rest of Europe needs.”

 

[websaway]

Hello Voters

I have read all 110 pages and come to the same conclusion that I started with it was bias and remains the same

Despite a very well worded piece by Edwin on page one and Others in the remain domain, again my Bias Support and Respect has to go to the soap box king Websaway the debate has been Democratic And that's what I fear we may well louse if left unchallenged http://Strongerout.uk

This is not won. The polls could be rigged to encourage complacency, this could lead to the , Brexit will win weather I vote or not attitude. Unlike a general election, every vote will count, if you know someone who want's us to retain our sovereignty and self determination for our future but doesn't normally go to the polling booth, go with them, it can be quiet daunting for people who have never done it before. If you meet ordinary people who are undecided, explain that this is not a general election it is about sovereignty, and remember the establishment and all the institutions it has power over are being lobbied to vote in. The out vote will depend on the individuals who staying in will most detrimentally affect.