Are you sitting on Edwins knee with his hand up your .....se
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EU Referendum
- Thread starter ian
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Be quiet please
I know where you are coming from and under other circumstances would agree, to a degree. It's easy to think as you are when you are in a particular position and forget that mentality is harder for others to change than you think . It's like telling the overweight people to eat less and run around more. People are often a product of their environment and that environment , often hard to escape, dictates not only what they do but what they think and obviously how they feel.
Would I be wrong to say you think . I am alright jack and I really can't be bothered. Sovereignty ? doesn't really bother me. Immigration ?guy next door to me he's got a nice new BMW seems a nice guy.
Urban dictionary is your friend.
Out of interest, what influence do you think Fleet St will play in the outcome of this referendum? It's long been said that they don't wield the power they once did. On the other hand, the Sun is usually on the ball when it comes to calling elections.
Today they've come out officially for Leave with a front page editorial - worth a read out of curiosity if nothing else to see what the largest circulation title is telling its readers...
I'm not convinced that their power is waning as fast as people say it is. Yes there's some fragmentation but the Sun and Mail maintain a huge reach online, even if profits are minimal, plus they still have the power to shape the news agenda for, say, the BBC and Sky News not to mention Westminster.
I suppose the question is, how many Sun readers are already Brexiters and how many are in the undecided/uninterested camp?
I fully expect the Daily Mail and Telegraph to follow suit. The Times is likely to follow its stablemate if orders have come down from Wrinkly Rupe. Only the Guardian, Mirror and FT are likely to be for Remain. (RIP printed Indie). As for the Express and Star, well, the less said about them the better.
Today they've come out officially for Leave with a front page editorial - worth a read out of curiosity if nothing else to see what the largest circulation title is telling its readers...
I'm not convinced that their power is waning as fast as people say it is. Yes there's some fragmentation but the Sun and Mail maintain a huge reach online, even if profits are minimal, plus they still have the power to shape the news agenda for, say, the BBC and Sky News not to mention Westminster.
I suppose the question is, how many Sun readers are already Brexiters and how many are in the undecided/uninterested camp?
I fully expect the Daily Mail and Telegraph to follow suit. The Times is likely to follow its stablemate if orders have come down from Wrinkly Rupe. Only the Guardian, Mirror and FT are likely to be for Remain. (RIP printed Indie). As for the Express and Star, well, the less said about them the better.
So where are we today.
We have learned that we have two main choices.
To either leave and risk a shallow recession, if the "experts"
are correct.
Or alternatively remain and accept that we will have
to accommodate immigration increasing the population of
the Uk by the equivalent of a city the size of Birmingham every
3 or 4 years.
We have learned that we have two main choices.
To either leave and risk a shallow recession, if the "experts"
are correct.
Or alternatively remain and accept that we will have
to accommodate immigration increasing the population of
the Uk by the equivalent of a city the size of Birmingham every
3 or 4 years.
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The Telegraph is an interesting animal. Their readership definitely profiles strongly for "Leave" (I think their poll was about 2-to-1 in favour of leaving when it was run a couple of months ago) but they do seem to have published a fair number of articles about some of the dangers inherent in leaving too. So while I agree with you that their editorial is likely to be pro-Leave, they've clearly not executed a blanket group-think order against their team of journalists like some of the tabloids seem to have.
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I'm not sure how they can crack this particular nut, but Remain really need to do a better job of calling the Leave camp out on their "proxy government" campaign.
There was another example this morning in the Vote Leave open letter saying that those in receipt of EU grants would continue to receive funding if Britain leaves the EU until 2020.
The language in it was absolutely unequivocal, and read exactly like a government pledge or policy announcement. I'm convinced many (most?) people have no idea that nothing the Vote Leave camp says "will happen" is a promise, or even an "attempt to promise" (i.e. a government policy). It's just their thinking out loud wish-list letter to Santa Cameron and the rest of the government, who are the ONLY ones who can decide what will or won't happen post-referendum. And as anyone who's ever written one of those letters knows, Santa never brings everything you wish for...
Here's a snippet of the language they're using (to make what I'm saying clearer):
(It goes on in the same vein for quite a while. There are snippets of the letter across various news sites; I've not yet managed to track down the original showing everything in one place.)
There was another example this morning in the Vote Leave open letter saying that those in receipt of EU grants would continue to receive funding if Britain leaves the EU until 2020.
The language in it was absolutely unequivocal, and read exactly like a government pledge or policy announcement. I'm convinced many (most?) people have no idea that nothing the Vote Leave camp says "will happen" is a promise, or even an "attempt to promise" (i.e. a government policy). It's just their thinking out loud wish-list letter to Santa Cameron and the rest of the government, who are the ONLY ones who can decide what will or won't happen post-referendum. And as anyone who's ever written one of those letters knows, Santa never brings everything you wish for...
Here's a snippet of the language they're using (to make what I'm saying clearer):
(It goes on in the same vein for quite a while. There are snippets of the letter across various news sites; I've not yet managed to track down the original showing everything in one place.)
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I'm not sure if it's the same letter or a different letter, but Vote Leave have made a "pledge" on maintaining Welsh EU funding this morning too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36523232
Here's reaction to the letter:
Doesn't that sound like the words of someone convinced that the letter is guaranteeing something?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36523232
Here's reaction to the letter:
Doesn't that sound like the words of someone convinced that the letter is guaranteeing something?
Hello Voters
I have read all 110 pages and come to the same conclusion that I started with it was bias and remains the same
Despite a very well worded piece by Edwin on page one and Others in the remain domain, again my Bias Support and Respect has to go to the soap box king Websaway the debate has been Democratic And that's what I fear we may well louse if left unchallenged http://Strongerout.uk
ps.Like the new site
I have read all 110 pages and come to the same conclusion that I started with it was bias and remains the same
Despite a very well worded piece by Edwin on page one and Others in the remain domain, again my Bias Support and Respect has to go to the soap box king Websaway the debate has been Democratic And that's what I fear we may well louse if left unchallenged http://Strongerout.uk
ps.Like the new site
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The economic argument
Represented by Oliver Morrissey, School of Economics, whose research interests include trade policy and the political economy of policy reform.
“Immigration is one of the main reasons for the referendum. For centuries, Britain has welcomed immigrants. While it’s economically successful, we can absorb them and they provide a net benefit. But that’s the past. It’s becoming harder to get full-time, well-paid stable employment - an increasing proportion of the labour force is in low-wage, temporary, zero-hour contracts. Immigration is a factor in causing that – as well as creating pressure on the education and health systems. People want some degree of regulation – the fact that the EU prevents that is a legitimate reason to vote to leave.
“It’s misleading to claim there won’t be costs for trade, but it’s equally misleading to claim these costs will be large. If Britain leaves the EU it will have to renegotiate existing trading relations with countries around the world that have been negotiated as part of the European Union. However, as the fifth largest economy in the world it’s likely to be in the interests of Britain’s trading partners to look for an agreement that is more or less a continuation of the existing relationship. There are structures within the WTO that would help that to happen. The US would find that of interest, as would many other nations – they don’t want the unnecessary extra costs of renegotiation.
“Put simply, the EU is not working. It’s not working on its economic policy, it’s got a deficit of democracy and a surfeit of regulation. It’s too rigid and not flexible enough. If Britain votes to exit, it’s the wakeup call the rest of Europe needs.”
Represented by Oliver Morrissey, School of Economics, whose research interests include trade policy and the political economy of policy reform.
“Immigration is one of the main reasons for the referendum. For centuries, Britain has welcomed immigrants. While it’s economically successful, we can absorb them and they provide a net benefit. But that’s the past. It’s becoming harder to get full-time, well-paid stable employment - an increasing proportion of the labour force is in low-wage, temporary, zero-hour contracts. Immigration is a factor in causing that – as well as creating pressure on the education and health systems. People want some degree of regulation – the fact that the EU prevents that is a legitimate reason to vote to leave.
“It’s misleading to claim there won’t be costs for trade, but it’s equally misleading to claim these costs will be large. If Britain leaves the EU it will have to renegotiate existing trading relations with countries around the world that have been negotiated as part of the European Union. However, as the fifth largest economy in the world it’s likely to be in the interests of Britain’s trading partners to look for an agreement that is more or less a continuation of the existing relationship. There are structures within the WTO that would help that to happen. The US would find that of interest, as would many other nations – they don’t want the unnecessary extra costs of renegotiation.
“Put simply, the EU is not working. It’s not working on its economic policy, it’s got a deficit of democracy and a surfeit of regulation. It’s too rigid and not flexible enough. If Britain votes to exit, it’s the wakeup call the rest of Europe needs.”
This is not won. The polls could be rigged to encourage complacency, this could lead to the , Brexit will win weather I vote or not attitude. Unlike a general election, every vote will count, if you know someone who want's us to retain our sovereignty and self determination for our future but doesn't normally go to the polling booth, go with them, it can be quiet daunting for people who have never done it before. If you meet ordinary people who are undecided, explain that this is not a general election it is about sovereignty, and remember the establishment and all the institutions it has power over are being lobbied to vote in. The out vote will depend on the individuals who staying in will most detrimentally affect.
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I recommend you take 7 minutes and 54 seconds to listen to Priti Patel's interview on the Today Programme in full. She sits in Cabinet as the Minister of State for Employment, and is a prominent member of the Vote Leave campaign.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ffxs9
(Starts at 02:18:02 - the slider's a bit fiddly but you should be able to get close)
I won't comment further here, since it's best approached completely "fresh".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ffxs9
(Starts at 02:18:02 - the slider's a bit fiddly but you should be able to get close)
I won't comment further here, since it's best approached completely "fresh".
I'm beginning to think that Brexit is becoming a real possibility now. I wonder what capacity we have in the professional civil service to actually negotiate all the deals and agreements we would need to do on our own. This gives a good idea -
https://www.civilserviceworld.com/a...-will-eu-referendum-really-mean-civil-service
https://www.civilserviceworld.com/a...-will-eu-referendum-really-mean-civil-service
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I'm all for leaving, the governments fear based campaign only made me more resolute on that. The truth is no one knows what will happen when we leave, this government is so austerity based people aren't falling for all the negatives and the fact they have no positive message says it all to me.
The sun carries alot of clout with working class people, particularly tradesmen, the government handled the remain campaign all wrong, they sent a leaflet which was supposed to be unbiased to every household at the taxpayers expense saying we should remain, so it wasn't factually based just propaganda. Look around forums discussing this and it's clear the governments fear based campaigning has back fired spectacularly. Trade agreements will be rewritten, after all the UK accounts for a majority of the remaining countries exports. Another factor to consider is the US is trying to get an agreement with the EU which will give the US alot more economic power in the EU, it's why Obama wants the UK to remain.
A simple fact is wages are being reduced due to the immigration, the minimum wage is nothing but a makeover, immigration suits large corporations because it drives the cost of wages down because it creates a surplus to demand in all but the highest skilled positions. I know a Polish chef who makes himself out to be a joiner, he ruined £2k of soundproofing when he sheeted a staircase because he didn't know what he was doing and kept missing the posts and putting holes in the soundproofing. I realize there are British people who pretend they are qualified when they are not, but it doesn't touch the surface when you compare them to the EU state citizens pretending they are painters, plumbers, joiners, builders etc. I know a couple of very skilled Polish tradesmen, but they are qualified and have been retrained in the UK to meet our standards.
Take housing, there isn't enough and in many councils immigrants get priority, people have had enough, many feel second class citizens in their own country. Politicians live in a bubble and this has been crystal clear in this remain campaign they are so out of touch it's a joke, they have no connection to the electorate at all. The UK has zero power to stop immigration or benefits to immigrants. I am not predicting the outcome but my vote is out, the UK will become a far stronger nation on it's own. Amongst the EU laws we pay for are those stupid cookie notices that need to be placed on a website, that's the mentality of these people. The government got it's campaign wrong, it narrowly worked with the Scottish independence referendum but this is a far wider reaching issue. Consider also oil is on it's way out, which means more people looking for work, we need to look after our own now.
The sun carries alot of clout with working class people, particularly tradesmen, the government handled the remain campaign all wrong, they sent a leaflet which was supposed to be unbiased to every household at the taxpayers expense saying we should remain, so it wasn't factually based just propaganda. Look around forums discussing this and it's clear the governments fear based campaigning has back fired spectacularly. Trade agreements will be rewritten, after all the UK accounts for a majority of the remaining countries exports. Another factor to consider is the US is trying to get an agreement with the EU which will give the US alot more economic power in the EU, it's why Obama wants the UK to remain.
A simple fact is wages are being reduced due to the immigration, the minimum wage is nothing but a makeover, immigration suits large corporations because it drives the cost of wages down because it creates a surplus to demand in all but the highest skilled positions. I know a Polish chef who makes himself out to be a joiner, he ruined £2k of soundproofing when he sheeted a staircase because he didn't know what he was doing and kept missing the posts and putting holes in the soundproofing. I realize there are British people who pretend they are qualified when they are not, but it doesn't touch the surface when you compare them to the EU state citizens pretending they are painters, plumbers, joiners, builders etc. I know a couple of very skilled Polish tradesmen, but they are qualified and have been retrained in the UK to meet our standards.
Take housing, there isn't enough and in many councils immigrants get priority, people have had enough, many feel second class citizens in their own country. Politicians live in a bubble and this has been crystal clear in this remain campaign they are so out of touch it's a joke, they have no connection to the electorate at all. The UK has zero power to stop immigration or benefits to immigrants. I am not predicting the outcome but my vote is out, the UK will become a far stronger nation on it's own. Amongst the EU laws we pay for are those stupid cookie notices that need to be placed on a website, that's the mentality of these people. The government got it's campaign wrong, it narrowly worked with the Scottish independence referendum but this is a far wider reaching issue. Consider also oil is on it's way out, which means more people looking for work, we need to look after our own now.
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Cameron's final bullet was threatening the old with pension cutbacks. What a shot in the foot. BANG ! if he lost the grey vote he would let Corbyn in, and Mcdonnell would soon find the money to fill the hole. Trident, mansion taxes, Mcdonnell would have a feast.
His last shot is probably if he has talked the pound down and it's not just speculators. Still a temporary boost for the incoming tourist industry.
His last shot is probably if he has talked the pound down and it's not just speculators. Still a temporary boost for the incoming tourist industry.
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No. The EU ruled in favour of the UK government this morning. No idea what you thought you read...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...enefits-to-unemployed-eu-migrants-judges-rule
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You are indeed correct sir, the title on the BBC wasn't quite as clear as the Guardians, I have edited my post, I'm still for leaving but you are correct on that point.
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No way do I want to be seen as supporting any mainstream news source, but maybe they were aware of the timeline of how events in Orlando unfolded, and don't want to be associated with it. Things like the story breaking around the world up to an hour before it started. Just one of so many false flag events designed to further Obama's gun control pledge.
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