EU Referendum

[websaway]

Interesting article in the DM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-travel-freely-Britain-2009-EU-citizens.html

 

[VSC]

There is no value in an opinion that promotes us losing our freedom and sovereignty, I care little about anyone's opinion on this matter where it incorporates the continual erosion, with the ultimate intention of surrendering it . So while I appreciate your concern for the way I conduct my post , it doesn't change my view .

Freedom ...
Freedom is a construct that we elect politicians to decide for us.

I do not trust that many politicians will have what I regard as the best interests of the majority of people should we leave the EU. Many regulations in the areas of workers rights, living wages, health & safety, green energy, etc had to be introduced to the UK because of the EU ... My belief is that many of these will be dismantled to the detriment of the most vulnerable in our society.

Sovereignty ...
Would the UK regain it's Sovereignty? What concessions would have to be made to get those trade deals that everyone talk about? What concessions would have to be made to countries to be able to "return" the over 1 million illegal non EU migrants in the UK (which seems as an objective of the leave campaign). Outside of the EU we just couldn't expel EU migrants we didn't like back either - we would have to work out a "deal" with the countries concerned - we couldn't just ship them off there. Yes, we could repeal and enact some few laws that we cannot currently ... but some would have to be tempered by economic and other considerations.

Sovereignty doesn't exist as it did decades ago - the world is much smaller, the UK is smaller.

 

[BeachLife]

Interesting article in the DM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-travel-freely-Britain-2009-EU-citizens.html

If you want anyone to consider your arguments, let alone value them, you really need to stop quoting the Daily Mail and the Express.

 

[bonusmedia]

There is no value in an opinion that promotes us losing our freedom and sovereignty, I care little about anyone's opinion on this matter where it incorporates the continual erosion, with the ultimate intention of surrendering it . So while I appreciate your concern for the way I conduct my post , it doesn't change my view .

The one thing you make clear is the corrosive effect of tabloid bullshit on the national psyche

 

[VSC]

Interesting article in the Independent

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/10-myths-about-the-uks-migrant-crisis-debunked--bJiNkKwaml

 

[websaway]

Freedom ...
Freedom is a construct that we elect politicians to decide for us.

I do not trust that many politicians will have what I regard as the best interests of the majority of people should we leave the EU. Many regulations in the areas of workers rights, living wages, health & safety, green energy, etc had to be introduced to the UK because of the EU ... My belief is that many of these will be dismantled to the detriment of the most vulnerable in our society.

Sovereignty ...
Would the UK regain it's Sovereignty? What concessions would have to be made to get those trade deals that everyone talk about? What concessions would have to be made to countries to be able to "return" the over 1 million illegal non EU migrants in the UK (which seems as an objective of the leave campaign). Outside of the EU we just couldn't expel EU migrants we didn't like back either - we would have to work out a "deal" with the countries concerned - we couldn't just ship them off there. Yes, we could repeal and enact some few laws that we cannot currently ... but some would have to be tempered by economic and other considerations.

Sovereignty doesn't exist as it did decades ago - the world is much smaller, the UK is smaller.

Yes tell America that sovereignty doesn't exist
You talk about what we could not do.
Look if you have immigration controls anyone who likes cannot just walk into your country and take up residence.
Border controls will be a deterrent so immigration will stabilise .
The current situation will mean endless amounts can come to the UK
Any rights you wish to preserve outside the EU will be the decision of a democratically elected UK government.

 

[VSC]

Okay, last for today (off to watch Sewing bee with better half) ...

Something that I found amusing ...

The etymology of the word Sovereignty has it's roots in old French ...

 

[websaway]

If you want anyone to consider your arguments, let alone value them, you really need to stop quoting the Daily Mail and the Express.

Your opinion, read and decide.

 

[gimpydog]

How much immigration is "enough"?

Hmmm?...Let's ask Hilary Benn for a straight answer.

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What is going on with that man. How did the apple fall so far from the tree?

 

[VSC]

Yes tell America that sovereignty doesn't exist
You talk about what we could not do.
Look if you have immigration controls anyone who likes cannot just walk into your country and take up residence.
Border controls will be a deterrent so immigration will stabilise .
The current situation will mean endless amounts can come to the UK
Any rights you wish to preserve outside the EU will be the decision of a democratically elected UK government.

America - tell that to the native Americans and the millions of kidnapped Africans.

We have immigration controls, around the EU. We have the power within the EU to have our voice heard which is why the UK is only accepting such a small amount of refugees from Syria etc while other countries are accepting tens of thousands of people in desperate need.
The vast majority of the EU citizens in the UK pay tax and contribute to our economy, which has been improving the last few years with unemployment reducing. The minority which are exploiting "our" system are less than the native UK people who exploit "our" system. Indeed perhaps blame lies with the UK employers who employ illegal migrants paying them £3 an hour to do work.
If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA, so border controls would be irrelevant with EU citizens.
Democratically elected ... well that's another discussion ... what about proportional representation.

 

[BeachLife]

Your opinion, read and decide.

Go on, tell us the Daily Mail is the last true bastion of intelligent journalism, and how they eloquently state their position through fair and considered argument.

 

[websaway]

Okay, last for today (off to watch Sewing bee with better half) ...

Something that I found amusing ...

The etymology of the word Sovereignty has it's roots in old French ...

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

For anyone who does not know, it's what many millions lost their lives over the last one hundred years to preserve. And I don't think giving it away is an option.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul.

 

[gimpydog]

... Turkey are not members of the EU they are members of the EEA which has... the free movement of ... persons

What. When did that happen?

Turkey and the Free Movement of Labour: Scare Mongering vs. Reality?

If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA

I thought we busted that myth 50 pages back?
EU Referendum
EU Referendum

 

[bonusmedia]

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

For anyone who does not know, it's what many millions lost their lives over the last one hundred years to preserve. And I don't think giving it away is an option.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul.

You do know we were fighting far right nationalists, who said many of the same things you are saying now?
The Daily Mail was on the wrong side then too

 

[websaway]

America - tell that to the native Americans and the millions of kidnapped Africans.

We have immigration controls, around the EU. We have the power within the EU to have our voice heard which is why the UK is only accepting such a small amount of refugees from Syria etc while other countries are accepting tens of thousands of people in desperate need.
The vast majority of the EU citizens in the UK pay tax and contribute to our economy, which has been improving the last few years with unemployment reducing. The minority which are exploiting "our" system are less than the native UK people who exploit "our" system. Indeed perhaps blame lies with the UK employers who employ illegal migrants paying them £3 an hour to do work.
If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA, so border controls would be irrelevant with EU citizens.
Democratically elected ... well that's another discussion ... what about proportional representation.

Yes but we need our own immigration controls , or so it seems the majority of the population think. We have agreed to accept 20,000 refugees and have spent billions on camps in the middle east .We could take more genuine refugees if we could control limitless immigration.
Weather immigrants pay tax or not does not address the numbers, and the fact is we have no room for an ever increasing amount. Not enough houses, not enough schools, not enough capacity in the health service. And as you say not enough jobs, so employers can drive pay down by employing immigrants instead of people who have overheads with housing and families to support. Turning the minimum wage into a maximum wage among the vast majority of the population. And if you disagree with our method of democracy. I can not imagine why you would support the EU who's leaders are not even elected. They are appointed just like the old soviet bloc.

 

[websaway]

You do know we were fighting far right nationalists, who said many of the same things you are saying now?
The Daily Mail was on the wrong side then too

What an idiot you are , forgive my directness.

 

[bonusmedia]

What an idiot you are , forgive my directness.

You have made 3x as many posts in this thread as anyone else. Why not climb down off the podium now and give your arms a rest?

 

[dougs]

 

[websaway]

You have made 3x as many posts in this thread as anyone else. Why not climb down off the podium now and give your arms a rest?

No no lots of energy left.

 

[dougs]

Quality and quantity do not always match