EU Referendum

[websaway]

If you want anyone to consider your arguments, let alone value them, you really need to stop quoting the Daily Mail and the Express.

Your opinion, read and decide.

 

[gimpydog]

How much immigration is "enough"?

Hmmm?...Let's ask Hilary Benn for a straight answer.

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What is going on with that man. How did the apple fall so far from the tree?

 

[VSC]

Yes tell America that sovereignty doesn't exist
You talk about what we could not do.
Look if you have immigration controls anyone who likes cannot just walk into your country and take up residence.
Border controls will be a deterrent so immigration will stabilise .
The current situation will mean endless amounts can come to the UK
Any rights you wish to preserve outside the EU will be the decision of a democratically elected UK government.

America - tell that to the native Americans and the millions of kidnapped Africans.

We have immigration controls, around the EU. We have the power within the EU to have our voice heard which is why the UK is only accepting such a small amount of refugees from Syria etc while other countries are accepting tens of thousands of people in desperate need.
The vast majority of the EU citizens in the UK pay tax and contribute to our economy, which has been improving the last few years with unemployment reducing. The minority which are exploiting "our" system are less than the native UK people who exploit "our" system. Indeed perhaps blame lies with the UK employers who employ illegal migrants paying them £3 an hour to do work.
If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA, so border controls would be irrelevant with EU citizens.
Democratically elected ... well that's another discussion ... what about proportional representation.

 

[BeachLife]

Your opinion, read and decide.

Go on, tell us the Daily Mail is the last true bastion of intelligent journalism, and how they eloquently state their position through fair and considered argument.

 

[websaway]

Okay, last for today (off to watch Sewing bee with better half) ...

Something that I found amusing ...

The etymology of the word Sovereignty has it's roots in old French ...

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

For anyone who does not know, it's what many millions lost their lives over the last one hundred years to preserve. And I don't think giving it away is an option.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul.

 

[gimpydog]

... Turkey are not members of the EU they are members of the EEA which has... the free movement of ... persons

What. When did that happen?

Turkey and the Free Movement of Labour: Scare Mongering vs. Reality?

If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA

I thought we busted that myth 50 pages back?
EU Referendum
EU Referendum

 

[bonusmedia]

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

For anyone who does not know, it's what many millions lost their lives over the last one hundred years to preserve. And I don't think giving it away is an option.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul.

You do know we were fighting far right nationalists, who said many of the same things you are saying now?
The Daily Mail was on the wrong side then too

 

[websaway]

America - tell that to the native Americans and the millions of kidnapped Africans.

We have immigration controls, around the EU. We have the power within the EU to have our voice heard which is why the UK is only accepting such a small amount of refugees from Syria etc while other countries are accepting tens of thousands of people in desperate need.
The vast majority of the EU citizens in the UK pay tax and contribute to our economy, which has been improving the last few years with unemployment reducing. The minority which are exploiting "our" system are less than the native UK people who exploit "our" system. Indeed perhaps blame lies with the UK employers who employ illegal migrants paying them £3 an hour to do work.
If we want to trade with the EU we would have to join the EEA, so border controls would be irrelevant with EU citizens.
Democratically elected ... well that's another discussion ... what about proportional representation.

Yes but we need our own immigration controls , or so it seems the majority of the population think. We have agreed to accept 20,000 refugees and have spent billions on camps in the middle east .We could take more genuine refugees if we could control limitless immigration.
Weather immigrants pay tax or not does not address the numbers, and the fact is we have no room for an ever increasing amount. Not enough houses, not enough schools, not enough capacity in the health service. And as you say not enough jobs, so employers can drive pay down by employing immigrants instead of people who have overheads with housing and families to support. Turning the minimum wage into a maximum wage among the vast majority of the population. And if you disagree with our method of democracy. I can not imagine why you would support the EU who's leaders are not even elected. They are appointed just like the old soviet bloc.

 

[websaway]

You do know we were fighting far right nationalists, who said many of the same things you are saying now?
The Daily Mail was on the wrong side then too

What an idiot you are , forgive my directness.

 

[bonusmedia]

What an idiot you are , forgive my directness.

You have made 3x as many posts in this thread as anyone else. Why not climb down off the podium now and give your arms a rest?

 

[dougs]

 

[websaway]

You have made 3x as many posts in this thread as anyone else. Why not climb down off the podium now and give your arms a rest?

No no lots of energy left.

 

[dougs]

Quality and quantity do not always match

 

[Edwin]

Good to see Labour stepping it up another notch... I'm still pessimistic, but it may help swing some undecideds.

Jeremy Corbyn will mobilise Labour’s entire shadow cabinet and the leaders of three major trade unions amid growing alarm among remain campaigners that Britain could be on the verge of voting to leave the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-flex-labours-muscles-in-eu-referendum-debate

Meanwhile, Leave is strewing straw men left and right... They'll have an entire haystack army soon!

Vote Leave has challenged the European Commission to explain five- and six-figure spending by Brussels officials on private jets , luxury hotels and an elite chauffeur service.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ropean-commission-spending-on-jets-and-hotels

It's perfectly possible that some expense claims may be a touch over-generous and wasteful, but that's a discussion that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the benefits the UK gains from EU membership, or what the country stands to lose from brexit. Like arguing against the reality of climate change by moaning that there's too much chewing gum on the pavement.

 

[websaway]

You remainers keep throwing it at me, but not things we can overcome.
You need to try to solve the questions of what we can not overcome.
We can overcome a shallow recession at worst, we cannot overcome at worse an increased population enough to fill a city the size of Birmingham every 3 or 4 years. And the far right and racist card just isn't working any more not against non racist, conformist people like me.

 

[websaway]

Good to see Labour stepping it up another notch... I'm still pessimistic, but it may help swing some undecideds.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-flex-labours-muscles-in-eu-referendum-debate

Meanwhile, Leave is strewing straw men left and right...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ropean-commission-spending-on-jets-and-hotels

It's perfectly possible that some expense claims may be a touch over-generous and wasteful, but that's a discussion that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the benefits the UK gains from EU membership, or what the country stands to lose from brexit. Like arguing against the reality of climate change by moaning that there's too much chewing gum on the pavement.

an extract from the article.

"The sense of panic among remain campaigners has emerged since Labour MPs started reporting negative feedback from voters in their constituencies. One senior figure in the party claimed that politicians all over the country, and particularly in working-class heartlands, had said that they believed their own areas would swing towards Brexit.

Another MP who is active in the remain campaign said the response from some constituents had been alarming, with some accusing politicians of being traitors for campaigning to stay in. He said the most noticeable message was about the idea that Britain could control its borders if it left the EU."

They have been too busy drinking in the commons bar and discussing the increases in their property prices and accusing people who have genuine concerns about immigration as being racist and bigoted, and not listening to what the electorate is really saying.

 

[Edwin]

I wonder if there's any correlation at all between a possible brexit and a Trump presidency. After all, they're similar in that both rely on the triumph of populism over rationalism. Yet it's hard to imagine either having even a remote chance of succeeding say 15-20 years ago.

Could it be down to social media creating a global "echo chamber" which lets people instantly find others who share a particular worldview, no matter how far removed from mainstream thought? The same social media tools help circulate wild assertions and hyperbole more readily than fact. Clickbait is cool and fun, the more outrageous the better, while data and stats are boring and square and part of the establishment.

There was a survey a couple of weeks' back that calculated that Trump has already received over $1 billion in "free" media exposure, which is about the same as both parties spend in an entire election campaign in a normal US presidential election cycle (not in the warm-up primary phase, in the WHOLE campaign). Day after day, thousands of pages of coverage hanging off his every incendiary utterance. But hey, if it brings in the ad impressions...

 

[bonusmedia]

I think you're onto something there. It doesn't even matter what Trump says any more, he himself pointed out that he could shoot someone and people would still vote for him. He's a master of controlling the narrative.

This is why politicians (infuriatingly) just find something that appears to resonate and repeat the same soundbite over and over - eventually it sticks - the truth is irrelevant.

Strange and scary times

 

[Toonz]

Go on, tell us the Daily Mail is the last true bastion of intelligent journalism, and how they eloquently state their position through fair and considered argument.

The paper that cares so much about terrorism, it devoted not a single inch of today's front page to the biggest mass shooting in recent American history. Every other paper recognised the gravity of the story and ran it on their front pages. The Daily Heil managed a double page spread on pages 10 and 11. One can only assume the Heil was paralised between its distaste of "the gay lifestyle" and its loathing of Muslims and feared its dear readers' heads might pop trying to work out which to hate most. Solution: rustle up some xenophobic scaremongering about the Turks, throw in some tat about your chance to own some Pearl and white sapphire earrings like Queenie wore - job's a dunner.

The paper is a joke. Yes all papers have biases, but at least the broadsheets just about cling on to some standards. An insider once told me that the Mail is actually run mostly by liberals who just package up the kind of easy red meat bigotry that their demographic needs to be drip-fed each day. Obviously the editor Dacre is no liberal, though the proprietor Lord Rothermere is by all accounts nothing like as swivel-eyed as the Mail's content would suggest.

 

[websaway]

Good to see Labour stepping it up another notch... I'm still pessimistic, but it may help swing some undecideds.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-flex-labours-muscles-in-eu-referendum-debate

Meanwhile, Leave is strewing straw men left and right... They'll have an entire haystack army soon!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ropean-commission-spending-on-jets-and-hotels

It's perfectly possible that some expense claims may be a touch over-generous and wasteful, but that's a discussion that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with the benefits the UK gains from EU membership, or what the country stands to lose from brexit. Like arguing against the reality of climate change by moaning that there's too much chewing gum on the pavement.

an extract below. A touch over generous, judge it for yourselves.
It's got everything to do with the wastefulness of an unelected organisation that we are becoming ruled by. Your argument about a mild recession if we leave against losing sovereignty and not being able to control immigration is like arguing against the reality of climate change by moaning that there's too much chewing gum on the pavement.
The only thing missing from this scenario is sepp blatter.




Spending on luxuries by the European commission was first uncovered in 2011 by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. It found that the office of José Manuel Barroso, then president of the commission, racked up a €249,000 bill for private jets in a nine-month period during which he attended the 2009 UN convention on climate change.

The bureau also found that Barroso and 35 others spent €28,000 at the luxury Peninsula New York hotel during the visit to the climate convention. It found that public money was used to fund a €75,000 cocktail party at a science conference, Discovery 09, which was “filled with wonder like no other … with trendy cocktails, surprising performances and top DJs”, while much of Europe was in the grip of recession.

The commission funded €300,000 worth of events described in internal documents as cocktail parties in the same year. At least a further €1.2m was spent on hotel and conference costs in 2009, including stays in San Diego, Prague and Balmoral.