EU Referendum

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Edwin said:
If anyone missed Andrew Neil's interview with Nigel Farage** last night and wanted to see it, there's both video and a transcript here
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/transcript-nigel-farage-grilled-andrew-neil-brexit/

(**I know full well he's not the official "Leave" campaign leader. But he's still going to be hugely influential on that side of the argument because of his UKIP ties - UKIP supporters are 97% in favour of "Leave" and represent the biggest single block of votes in that direction by far.)

I thought Neil went easy on him. Maybe Andrew will vote for Brexit.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

I think a great article on why most politicians want to remain to take advantage of this EU gravy train.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Brussels-fat-cats-Kinnocks-help-decide.html

Not surprising that labour voters are deserting.

Sound · Jun 11, 2016

Britain would gain more from leaving the EU than it would lose, billionaire entrepreneur Sir James Dyson has said.

The inventor said the idea that Britain could not trade successfully outside the EU was "absolute cobblers".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36505735

Edwin · Jun 11, 2016

Sound said:
Britain would gain more from leaving the EU than it would lose, billionaire entrepreneur Sir James Dyson has said.

The inventor said the idea that Britain could not trade successfully outside the EU was "absolute cobblers".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36505735

From that article:

Sir James argued that if, after a vote to leave, the EU imposed a 10% tariff on UK goods, Britain would do the same on imported EU goods. He said that because Britain imported far more from the EU than it exported there, it would bring in an extra £10bn a year for the UK.

The 10% that Britain would impose on imports would go to the UK government (yay?) but would be 10% more out of the pocket of everyone in the UK who'd just bought that particular product (in the form of higher prices) so I'm not sure he's quite grasped the nuances of the situation there.

AssetDomains · Jun 11, 2016

If your interested in science and inervation leaving is a bad idea acording to 13 of the smartest people in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...eates-urge-britain-to-stay-in-european-union/

Edwin · Jun 11, 2016

I wonder if David Cameron and George Osborne will make a very hasty exit if the vote goes "Leave" so that the Tories who backed the winning side are forced to "own" the decision and can't wriggle out if "bad stuff happens" by claiming DC and GO just negotiated poorly.

In the above scenario, I would expect Article 50 to get invoked almost as soon as the vote has been tallied.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Edwin said:
I wonder if David Cameron and George Osborne will make a very hasty exit if the vote goes "Leave" so that the Tories who backed the winning side are forced to "own" the decision and can't wriggle out if "bad stuff happens" by claiming DC and GO just negotiated poorly.

In the above scenario, I would expect Article 50 to get invoked almost as soon as the vote has been tallied.

This referendum is bigger than that. Farage has opened a can of worms where the political elite , not just the Eton set are under scrutiny by the grass root population and Corbyn is loving it.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

The rhetoric from most politicians on both sides say it's better to stay in the EU to change it from within. Similar rhetoric to that of Labour MP's when they have to justify entering the unelected house of Lords. Lord Prescott is a prime example. Nothing to do with the gravy train then.

Edwin · Jun 11, 2016

websaway said:
This referendum is bigger than that. Farage has opened a can of worms where the political elite , not just the Eton set are under scrutiny by the grass root population and Corbyn is loving it.

How do you see the UK evolving after a Leave vote? Economically? Politically? Societally? What happens at the 2020 General Election and beyond? And what about between now and 2016 with a different group of Conservatives at the wheel (Johnson, Gove and Duncan-Smith)

(I'm having trouble visualising the above beyond the obvious switch from David Cameron to Boris Johnson and his Leave camp pals in very short order which I've already posted about. Plus I believe the economic doom and gloom projections, which affects how I think about everything else...)

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Has anyone ever worked out what a knighthood is worth to a British Billionaire ?
It probably doesn't matter though does it , it seems corruption is now allowable because so many people are tied up in it.
I think the UK is in for a bumpy political ride.
Hypothetically speaking if someone marries an MP gets a job doing charity work at £xxx,xxx per annum and effectively has a voice in the house of commons or the Lords, it's OK because it's a CHARITY doesn't matter that someone might be creaming of 1.3 million dollars off the top as a salary.
I think we've moved a long way on from cash for questions.
Just a thought. When someone breaks their neck to get 3,000 children into the UK, I wonder if there is an underlying agenda, silly me, I'm probably just being cynical.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Edwin said:
How do you see the UK evolving after a Leave vote? Economically? Politically? Societally? What happens at the 2020 General Election and beyond? And what about between now and 2016 with a different group of Conservatives at the wheel (Johnson, Gove and Duncan-Smith)

(I'm having trouble visualising the above beyond the obvious switch from David Cameron to Boris Johnson and his Leave camp pals in very short order which I've already posted about. Plus I believe the economic doom and gloom projections, which affects how I think about everything else...)

Have you not considered with such a small majority the government could be brought down. Corbyn is a canny operator, I for one have underestimated his potential. He can not be accused of championing the remain campaign, he is guarded on his reasons for backing it, in the post mortem stages he will easily be able to defend his position. Cameron on the other hand is a dead duck he has lied, since last November and will not be able to retain credibility . I have been a capitalist most of my adult life, I converted when I learned the objectives of the trade unions and it's alignment to marxism but the current situation makes me sick to the stomach. We have I'm afraid lost our true politics, it was the blair government with it's spin doctors that created a situation where anything goes, no shame, no ultimate accountability, and it's so incestuous the public really don't know what's going on.

Edwin · Jun 11, 2016

I think it would be the kiss of death to Labour for them to collaborate on causing the fall of the government when all but a handful of their MPs were effectively complicit in the referendum "failure" (I assume the no confidence vote would have to be worded to imply that a Leave vote result represented grave failure).

Plus why would the SNP, Lib Dems etc vote for No Confidence when 100% of their number were for Remain?

There is a 300+ MP margin in the Remain camp - there's no way that's going to erode if a N.C. vote were called for.

And who would call the N.C. vote in the first place with all the parties together on the "losing" side?

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Edwin said:
I think it would be the kiss of death to Labour for them to collaborate on causing the fall of the government when all but a handful of their MPs were effectively complicit in the referendum "failure" (I assume the no confidence vote would have to be worded to imply that a Leave vote result represented grave failure).

Plus why would the SNP, Lib Dems etc vote for No Confidence when 100% of their number were for Remain?

There is a 300+ MP margin in the Remain camp - there's no way that's going to erode if a N.C. vote were called for.

And who would call the N.C. vote in the first place with all the parties together on the "losing" side?

Well you can apply statistics but wounds are not going to heal and the people are revolting. The chilcot report will add oil to the fire.
Why do you think so many people are actually standing up to the establishment in this referendum.

AlistairM · Jun 11, 2016

One of the reasons I'm for voting leave is because I think it could shake up politics over here dramatically. The politicians might finally get it into their heads that it is in fact the British people that still have control, and they're fed up with seeing this country going to the dogs with issues like chavs living off the tax payer and criminals being giving too lenient prison sentences and sort out people like some of these idiots currently in France who drag this country's reputation through the dirt once again. Brexit could be the start to getting politicians to actually listen to what decent British people really want.

Edwin · Jun 11, 2016

AlistairM said:
One of the reasons I'm for voting leave is because I think it could shake up politics over here dramatically. The politicians might finally get it into their heads that it is in fact the British people that still have control, and they're fed up with seeing this country going to the dogs with issues like chavs living off the tax payer and criminals being giving too lenient prison sentences and sort out people like some of these idiots currently in France who drag this country's reputation through the dirt once again. Brexit could be the start to getting politicians to actually listen to what decent British people really want.

So in political terms, you'd favour a fairly harsh swing to the right? Is that a fair assessment?

If so, are the Tory party in any shape to provide it?

AlistairM · Jun 11, 2016

I'd just like somebody to take control that has pride in this country and morals to match. People can say what they like about Nigel Farage but nobody can say he doesn't stick to what he believes. I think the only thing I don't really agree with him on is fracking.

I don't know about the Torys. Can't really stand Cameron and definitely can't stand Osborne, right. Can't say I'd really like to see Boris in charge, don't know too much on Michael Gove, maybe Jacob Rees Mogg as he seems like a genuine bloke.

Even Jeremy Corbyn I would have trusted more than DC and GO, at least before he chose to back remain, he seems to have principles and sticks to his beliefs even if I do disagree with him. Not so sure now though. I would never vote for him though.

Just had enough of reading about lenient prison sentences and of peoples general attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something been added to the water supply in recent years. Too many people think nobody matters other than them, have no respect for anything or anybody, and too many people that can work but don't and just live off of the tax payer. I could write more but the 2nd half of the rugby's started.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

Edwin said:
So in political terms, you'd favour a fairly harsh swing to the right? Is that a fair assessment?

If so, are the Tory party in any shape to provide it?

Why should decency be termed either right or left.

websaway · Jun 11, 2016

AlistairM said:
I'd just like somebody to take control that has pride in this country and morals to match. People can say what they like about Nigel Farage but nobody can say he doesn't stick to what he believes. I think the only thing I don't really agree with him on is fracking.

I don't know about the Torys. Can't really stand Cameron and definitely can't stand Osborne, right. Can't say I'd really like to see Boris in charge, don't know too much on Michael Gove, maybe Jacob Rees Mogg as he seems like a genuine bloke.

Even Jeremy Corbyn I would have trusted more than DC and GO, at least before he chose to back remain, he seems to have principles and sticks to his beliefs even if I do disagree with him. Not so sure now though. I would never vote for him though.

Just had enough of reading about lenient prison sentences and of peoples general attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something been added to the water supply in recent years. Too many people think nobody matters other than them, have no respect for anything or anybody, and too many people that can work but don't and just live off of the tax payer. I could write more but the 2nd half of the rugby's started.

I'm by no means an expert on this particular subject but I do think on this occasion common sense prevails over expertise, after all, the experts are part of the problem. Politicians used to be roll models for the people, as did doctors and teachers. Then, as decency began to become more vague and less of a necessity, it has set a new much higher level for what we used to term shame. People like Mandelson, who really doesn't care what happens to the country unless it affects him, twice had to resign in government, once for getting a dodgy mortgage and then for getting someone a dodgy passport. Not long ago that would have ended his political career. It didn't , it may well have advanced his career into the EU with a nice salary and a life time pension and a seat in the house of lords to boot . So I believe that if people at the top have no shame and can do wrong, then judges and the like look at the underprivileged and quite understandable use the rule, what's good for the goose has to be good for the gander. It has to work from the top down and we are finding out lately that the top is rotten to the core.

gimpydog · Jun 11, 2016

Toonz said:
What I'm saying is that expertise is not something to casually dismiss. And "common sense" (aka opinionated ignorance) is no substitute for it.

I could probably have picked on any of these "experts" & questioned their credibility - whichever side they support.

I doubt anyone has any real expertise on what happens when the UK leaves the EU. Just more verbiage, forecasts & opinions.

What are we left with? Ten experts say 'this', twenty experts say 'that'. Do you go with the numbers, or pick the best qualified or the one with the longest dick?

People need to make up their own minds - not rely on Wikipedia, The Guardian, BBC or any of the others spouting opinions as fact (aka opinionated ignorance).