EU Referendum

[Edwin]

I was disappointed (though not surprised) that the hour was whittled down still further by the ad break in the middle and by the early end to the "debate", presumably so that Sky could squeeze in another batch of ads before the top of the hour. Should have been 90 minutes at least, which would have given a "real hour" after all the interruptions.

 

[websaway]

I can't see that there was much more to say, conjecture on the economy and hard facts on immigration. I was a Cameron supporter until he went to Brussels threatening to back a brexit if he couldn't get reform and came back bragging success and hoping to wing it, only for his claims to be proved hollow. He then seems to have no shame in calling the mayor of London a terrorist supporter only to share a platform with him on Monday. He broke promises on immigration numbers and won't address the issue.
He quotes numbers of immigrants working here but ignores the facts that anyone will employ workers who work for low wages. We create a job, a migrant takes it, we build a house, a migrant fills it, we build a school and migrant children take the places. Our national health service cannot cope with unknown demand over the coming years. If immigrants want to fill care jobs and be cared for, why don't they start a national health service in their own country, fund it , staff it, and use it themselves. The claim that we need unquantifiable numbers of unskilled immigrants to bolster our economy is ludicrous and if at any time in the future we do need any then we can invite them to come.

 

[scottmccloud]

We create a job, a migrant takes it

I was a recruitment consultant up until a couple of years ago and provided staff for some large scale manufacturing businesses, pickers, packers, assemblers and warehouse staff. I'm leaning towards Brexit but some of these businesses would severely suffer without eastern Europeans.

The fact is when you work for an agency like I did you get loads of young English candidates coming in saying they are desperate for work but when it comes down to it, unless it's on their doorstep and doesn't start too early, they're not interested. Even if they say they'll go, it's 50/50 whether they turn up and that's after I'd have to tell them which bus to get and at what time.

When I used to ring a Polish person up for the same job, they'd say 'I'll take it' and you could guarantee they'd turn up religiously on time and work hard.

It's no wonder migrants are getting these types of jobs.

 

[signature]

@websaway

You have been saying silly things about migrants; I actually don’t really want to respond to your comments but they seems really far fetch from the truth.

You posted about migrants bringing in their families, Brexit won’t stop that, that’s under UN convention; you talk about immigrants taken the job “WE CREATE” taken the house “WE BUILD”, filling the schools “WE BUILD” with their children.

Why is this all immigrant fault, immigrants don’t set policies, politicians do, if the government can’t provide for the people in the country is the government fault, nothing to do with immigrants. When this government came into power, the first thing they do was abolish the point system use under Labour, thinking if they reduce the immigrants from none EU that will be enough.

Government policies bring in immigration, which means government policies should also address the needs of population increase.

I hear the same arguments for decades; you need to go into politics if you think the current crops of Politicians are setting the wrong policies.

Who is “WE” are you part of the “WE” that is a special group of people or are you referring to the TAX payers, if you are referring to TAX payers, remember that immigrants do pay tax too and most of them won’t be here to collect state pension that they have to contribute to.

You think migrants don’t create jobs, let’s even look at the lower end of the scale, Polish shops for example; they don’t exist 15 years ago, now we have polish shops every 1000s of them, these are shops setup by polish, rent buildings(which might have been left empty), pay business rates, pay income tax and pay business tax. You can say this for other nationalities too. Not sure what you call that but I see it as contribution.

We have migrants (both EU and non EU) running their own building companies, IT companies, Haulage, legal firms, retails, pharmacies, GP, manufacturing and many more. Do you think all immigrants does is odd jobs? We like to drive nice cars (I mean nice sport cars), live in mansion and go on five star holidays too, you can’t do that picking strawberries.

We are just like you, we have families, friends, you might not believe it, we also do have personal problems too just like any other human being.

This might also come as a shock to you, majority of immigrants in this country came here legally, not hiding at the back of the lorry.

Immigrants create jobs for themselves as well as for people that are here, you need to stop focusing on media sound bites, immigrants taken our jobs because that’s totally nonsense.

EU border-less policy has been in place for the 25 years, it’s only an issue now when you have countries of low income joining EU, it’s a no brainer, people will move to part of EU that is richer, the same way people will move from the north of England to the south to find jobs. I can still remember few of my friends went to Germany to work in the early 90s when things were difficult here.

Just another fact for you, Germany have more EU migrants than UK per population and they have more none EU immigrants per population than the UK but the media in the UK makes it look like the whole world is in France and ready to come to UK.

The way you make your statements here is pure anger and anger to the wrong set of people, you are the same guy that refers to immigrants as filth, and you are the same guy that makes statement like white Britain.

The world you are painting is long gone, the whole world has changed, if UK exit the EU we can make our own economy policies and immigration policies but you not in isolation anymore.

The world where raw materials are shipped to UK and finished good export from UK is long gone, we don’t even own a lot of British iconic products anymore, you need to do a proper reality check, there is a reason why the UK move to service based economy, you need to do your own research.

The world is getting smaller every day, UK can’t survive in isolation (does not mean they have to be part of EU state) but thinking UK will be able to make policy without compromise, those days are long gone.

You need to see beyond the colour, ethnics and religion, you and I have been classified white and black and we use it against each other, when will I become a ‘man’ to you and not a ‘black man’, when will the guy from Poland become a man to you and not ‘the polish guy’.

I don’t know your condition or your current situation in life but I don’t see any reason why the attacks have to be on a set of people that don’t make laws.

Immigrants are human being, they are not filth and thanks to your parent that you are born in this country because without them you will probably be an immigrant as well and do you think filth is a good word to describe another human being?

Have a good weekend and I hope it all works out for you.

 

[websaway]

@websaway

You have been saying silly things about migrants; I actually don’t really want to respond to your comments but they seems really far fetch from the truth.

You posted about migrants bringing in their families, Brexit won’t stop that, that’s under UN convention; you talk about immigrants taken the job “WE CREATE” taken the house “WE BUILD”, filling the schools “WE BUILD” with their children.

Why is this all immigrant fault, immigrants don’t set policies, politicians do, if the government can’t provide for the people in the country is the government fault, nothing to do with immigrants. When this government came into power, the first thing they do was abolish the point system use under Labour, thinking if they reduce the immigrants from none EU that will be enough.

Government policies bring in immigration, which means government policies should also address the needs of population increase.

I hear the same arguments for decades; you need to go into politics if you think the current crops of Politicians are setting the wrong policies.

Who is “WE” are you part of the “WE” that is a special group of people or are you referring to the TAX payers, if you are referring to TAX payers, remember that immigrants do pay tax too and most of them won’t be here to collect state pension that they have to contribute to.

You think migrants don’t create jobs, let’s even look at the lower end of the scale, Polish shops for example; they don’t exist 15 years ago, now we have polish shops every 1000s of them, these are shops setup by polish, rent buildings(which might have been left empty), pay business rates, pay income tax and pay business tax. You can say this for other nationalities too. Not sure what you call that but I see it as contribution.

We have migrants (both EU and non EU) running their own building companies, IT companies, Haulage, legal firms, retails, pharmacies, GP, manufacturing and many more. Do you think all immigrants does is odd jobs? We like to drive nice cars (I mean nice sport cars), live in mansion and go on five star holidays too, you can’t do that picking strawberries.

We are just like you, we have families, friends, you might not believe it, we also do have personal problems too just like any other human being.

This might also come as a shock to you, majority of immigrants in this country came here legally, not hiding at the back of the lorry.

Immigrants create jobs for themselves as well as for people that are here, you need to stop focusing on media sound bites, immigrants taken our jobs because that’s totally nonsense.

EU border-less policy has been in place for the 25 years, it’s only an issue now when you have countries of low income joining EU, it’s a no brainer, people will move to part of EU that is richer, the same way people will move from the north of England to the south to find jobs. I can still remember few of my friends went to Germany to work in the early 90s when things were difficult here.

Just another fact for you, Germany have more EU migrants than UK per population and they have more none EU immigrants per population than the UK but the media in the UK makes it look like the whole world is in France and ready to come to UK.

The way you make your statements here is pure anger and anger to the wrong set of people, you are the same guy that refers to immigrants as filth, and you are the same guy that makes statement like white Britain.

The world you are painting is long gone, the whole world has changed, if UK exit the EU we can make our own economy policies and immigration policies but you not in isolation anymore.

The world where raw materials are shipped to UK and finished good export from UK is long gone, we don’t even own a lot of British iconic products anymore, you need to do a proper reality check, there is a reason why the UK move to service based economy, you need to do your own research.

The world is getting smaller every day, UK can’t survive in isolation (does not mean they have to be part of EU state) but thinking UK will be able to make policy without compromise, those days are long gone.

You need to see beyond the colour, ethnics and religion, you and I have been classified white and black and we use it against each other, when will I become a ‘man’ to you and not a ‘black man’, when will the guy from Poland become a man to you and not ‘the polish guy’.

I don’t know your condition or your current situation in life but I don’t see any reason why the attacks have to be on a set of people that don’t make laws.

Immigrants are human being, they are not filth and thanks to your parent that you are born in this country because without them you will probably be an immigrant as well and do you think filth is a good word to describe another human being?

Have a good weekend and I hope it all works out for you.

I read your post with interest and can only assume you are mixing me up with someone else.
But for the avoidance of any doubt, my position is that I disagree with uncontrolled immigration. I also think that the open border policy in the EU is a mistake for that organisation and the wellbeing of mainland Europe.

 

[signature]

I read your post with interest and can only assume you are mixing me up with someone else.
But for the avoidance of any doubt, my position is that I disagree with uncontrolled immigration. I also think that the open border policy in the EU is a mistake for that organisation and the wellbeing of mainland Europe.

Sorry if you are not the one that use the word filth, but I am sure you are the same person that quote white Britain, you are the same person that stated that an Albanian getting state benefit and legal aids to fight his case.
These are not Brexit issues, these things will happen either we are IN or OUT, legal representation and asylum is a United Nation convention policies, Albania is not part of the EU yet.

If any UK citizen need a legal representation in any country in the world they find themselves or if they seek asylum in any country, they will be processed and they will get legal representation if they cannot afford one.

This is another quote from you:
"The poor people of this country can say the only thing they really own is their freedom and the sovereignty for which their ancestors gave their lives to protect."

Just say you know, there are thousands of other nationals that fought and died along side British Army and if we have to go to war today there will be immigrants fighting for this nation.

This is another quote from you:
" Indeed it's a net benefit for Labour because every one immigrant represents another labour vote, and when you calculate the death rate among socialist voters they need to replenish their followers."

Just say you know, not all immigrants vote Labour, your comment about replenish followers because of death rate among socialist voters is really tasteless. Immigrants vote other parties too. I am a Labour voter, I cannot vote conservative because their core policy of small government does not fit into my belief, I don't believe that the needs of the citizen of a nation should be in private companies, things like water, energy, education, health etc. Only labour or LibDems share my believes but I choose Labour and that does not make me an immigrant that labour shipped into this country to replenish their followers.

Most poor people vote Labour, most rich people vote Tories, not because they are immigrants, its selfishness on both sides, the rich want to protect their wealth and the poor want more from the state, unfortunately most immigrants are poor hence you can make statements like this.

If your issue is immigration, leave out the immigrants activities out of the debate, focus on the immigration policies, you cant keep using few immigrants bad behaviour as an excuse, what about the other ones that are here legally helping to build this country.

If housing is an issue for you, focus on the housing policies not the immigrants with 10 bedroom house and on benefit, that's not his making, its the policy makers that need to sort things out.

If NHS is an issue for you, please focus on policies and not on immigrants activities.

If at all you have any issues with anything about this country, go and speak with your MP and if he cannot do anything about it, stand against him in the next election this is not issues for IN or OUT, they exist before EU and they will exist regardless of how we vote.

Just to say, immigrants also share the same concern you have, because we depend on these needs as well.

Majority of your concern about immigration, NHS, schools, housing are all government failed policies, nothing to do with IN or OUT of the EU. EU does not tell us not to build more council houses or build more hospitals or more schools.

Lets take housing issue, we vote for the tories so that they can now start selling housing association properties, similar polices that Tories started in the 80s with the council houses. All I will say is if they continue with these policies, the housing issue we have today will be seen as no issue. I was involve with house building from Wales to Norwich, builders will not build any faster if the same policy remains. In the 50s/60s builders build houses for the councils, they have ready buyers, so they build in mass, today we have shared ownership, we have government using housing to pass debt to his people in the form of 20% equity. If they really want to solve the housing crises, they will fund the builders to build 100% council houses not silly section 106 that is just tinkering around the edges. We have millions on the waiting list, this in business terms means ready market with desperate customers. Will the current government do this, unlikely as any drastic measure will affect house prices which since 2000 have been use to hold loads of investment funds.

Please I understand your concern about immigration, but you need to leave immigrant bashing out of this.

There are over 5000 Acorners here, from five continents of the world, we chat, we converse, we do business and we do sometimes shout at each other without even know where we reside. This is the new world, the world where between waking up and going to bed you would have converse, collaborate and transact business with people from different continent without leaving your house.

Thanks

 

[RobM]

I think a lot of the issue is people unable to distinguish between immigrant, illegal immigrant, and economic migrants. They are not all the same but the media portrays them as one depending on their bias.

 

[newguy]

--

 

[ian]

I think a lot of the issue is people unable to distinguish between immigrant, illegal immigrant, and economic migrants. They are not all the same but the media portrays them as one depending on their bias.

Agreed, and sadly we have a proportion of the UK whom are closet racist's and will make a decision purely on the wrongful expectation that suddenly we'll close the borders and kick everyone out!

 

[RobM]

I think it's possible to worry about population growth and future demographics due to outside forces without being a racist. The 'racist' word seems to be bandied about now whenever someone has an opinion that differs from the mainstream.

 

[Toonz]

I think a lot of the issue is people unable to distinguish between immigrant, illegal immigrant, and economic migrants. They are not all the same but the media portrays them as one depending on their bias.

Unfortunately the British public have been systematically fed a diet of anti-migrant stories for as long as I can remember. The tabloid press (and that includes the Daily Mail and Daily Express, despite their olde-style masthead giving a veneer of respectability) are as guilty as anyone of inciting hatred, often with bogus stories such as Christmas being banned and so on. I'm not surprised that we now have so much fear and resentment swilling around our population. Just look at today's main Sun headline on the front page: "AUNTIE IS ANTI WHITE. TELLY JOBS JUST FOR MINORITIES" (= inaccurate and inflammatory). Or yesterday's Star front page: "ENGLAND'S CRUSADER FANS FACE RACE FURY" (The article begins: 'England fans will dress as knights at Euro 2016 despite fears crusader costumers "might offend"') - and that's their 'race fury' front page - that some people "might" be offended. I am absolutely sick of this constant demonisation, this constant stoking of the hornets' nest that these scummy papers have been profiting from for years. Sad and unlikely as it may seem, a lot of people still rely heavily on their daily tabloid to find out what's going on in the country and in the world at large. So when the Daily Mail knowingly run false stories about Christmas being renamed Winterval or the latest "PC Gone Mad" bollocks, it has real, tangible consequences. If I had a penny for every time I've seen the words "...in case it offends Muslims" in a paper headline, I'd be as rich as the lying billionaire proprietors and their pathetic editors who serve up this incendiary tripe.

 

[websaway]

Sorry if you are not the one that use the word filth, but I am sure you are the same person that quote white Britain, you are the same person that stated that an Albanian getting state benefit and legal aids to fight his case.
These are not Brexit issues, these things will happen either we are IN or OUT, legal representation and asylum is a United Nation convention policies, Albania is not part of the EU yet.

If any UK citizen need a legal representation in any country in the world they find themselves or if they seek asylum in any country, they will be processed and they will get legal representation if they cannot afford one.

This is another quote from you:
"The poor people of this country can say the only thing they really own is their freedom and the sovereignty for which their ancestors gave their lives to protect."


I think you are taking the comments too personal. The immigration problem can be addressed by controlled immigration and then looked on as what's best for our country and from a humanitarian point of view. That can not be achieved as an EU member.

Just say you know, there are thousands of other nationals that fought and died along side British Army and if we have to go to war today there will be immigrants fighting for this nation.

This is another quote from you:
" Indeed it's a net benefit for Labour because every one immigrant represents another labour vote, and when you calculate the death rate among socialist voters they need to replenish their followers."

Just say you know, not all immigrants vote Labour, your comment about replenish followers because of death rate among socialist voters is really tasteless. Immigrants vote other parties too. I am a Labour voter, I cannot vote conservative because their core policy of small government does not fit into my belief, I don't believe that the needs of the citizen of a nation should be in private companies, things like water, energy, education, health etc. Only labour or LibDems share my believes but I choose Labour and that does not make me an immigrant that labour shipped into this country to replenish their followers.

Most poor people vote Labour, most rich people vote Tories, not because they are immigrants, its selfishness on both sides, the rich want to protect their wealth and the poor want more from the state, unfortunately most immigrants are poor hence you can make statements like this.

If your issue is immigration, leave out the immigrants activities out of the debate, focus on the immigration policies, you cant keep using few immigrants bad behaviour as an excuse, what about the other ones that are here legally helping to build this country.

If housing is an issue for you, focus on the housing policies not the immigrants with 10 bedroom house and on benefit, that's not his making, its the policy makers that need to sort things out.

If NHS is an issue for you, please focus on policies and not on immigrants activities.

If at all you have any issues with anything about this country, go and speak with your MP and if he cannot do anything about it, stand against him in the next election this is not issues for IN or OUT, they exist before EU and they will exist regardless of how we vote.

Just to say, immigrants also share the same concern you have, because we depend on these needs as well.

Majority of your concern about immigration, NHS, schools, housing are all government failed policies, nothing to do with IN or OUT of the EU. EU does not tell us not to build more council houses or build more hospitals or more schools.

Lets take housing issue, we vote for the tories so that they can now start selling housing association properties, similar polices that Tories started in the 80s with the council houses. All I will say is if they continue with these policies, the housing issue we have today will be seen as no issue. I was involve with house building from Wales to Norwich, builders will not build any faster if the same policy remains. In the 50s/60s builders build houses for the councils, they have ready buyers, so they build in mass, today we have shared ownership, we have government using housing to pass debt to his people in the form of 20% equity. If they really want to solve the housing crises, they will fund the builders to build 100% council houses not silly section 106 that is just tinkering around the edges. We have millions on the waiting list, this in business terms means ready market with desperate customers. Will the current government do this, unlikely as any drastic measure will affect house prices which since 2000 have been use to hold loads of investment funds.

Please I understand your concern about immigration, but you need to leave immigrant bashing out of this.

There are over 5000 Acorners here, from five continents of the world, we chat, we converse, we do business and we do sometimes shout at each other without even know where we reside. This is the new world, the world where between waking up and going to bed you would have converse, collaborate and transact business with people from different continent without leaving your house.

Thanks

 

[Toonz]

I think it's possible to worry about population growth and future demographics due to outside forces without being a racist. The 'racist' word seems to be bandied about now whenever someone has an opinion that differs from the mainstream.

I agree to some extent, but the problem for me isn't the discussing of immigration, it's the tone of the discussion which, too often, betrays an unmistakable stench of racism. Little slips of the tongue, interesting wording, that sort of thing.

 

[websaway]

I agree to some extent, but the problem for me isn't the discussing of immigration, it's the tone of the discussion which, too often, betrays an unmistakable stench of racism. Little slips of the tongue, interesting wording, that sort of thing.

If you are referring to white British, that was not a slip of the tongue it's a demographic measurement. So let's just drop the racist card it's old hat and had it's day.

 

[Edwin]

Some interesting stuff here though, a new leave advert has gone out and is using the .uk for their site.

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There's more background information here about the odds to the contest, and how Vote Leave have set it up in order to build up a mailing list (which can be opted out of, of course)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36398775

 

[websaway]

Unfortunately the British public have been systematically fed a diet of anti-migrant stories for as long as I can remember. The tabloid press (and that includes the Daily Mail and Daily Express, despite their olde-style masthead giving a veneer of respectability) are as guilty as anyone of inciting hatred, often with bogus stories such as Christmas being banned and so on. I'm not surprised that we now have so much fear and resentment swilling around our population. Just look at today's main Sun headline on the front page: "AUNTIE IS ANTI WHITE. TELLY JOBS JUST FOR MINORITIES" (= inaccurate and inflammatory). Or yesterday's Star front page: "ENGLAND'S CRUSADER FANS FACE RACE FURY" (The article begins: 'England fans will dress as knights at Euro 2016 despite fears crusader costumers "might offend"') - and that's their 'race fury' front page - that some people "might" be offended. I am absolutely sick of this constant demonisation, this constant stoking of the hornets' nest that these scummy papers have been profiting from for years. Sad and unlikely as it may seem, a lot of people still rely heavily on their daily tabloid to find out what's going on in the country and in the world at large. So when the Daily Mail knowingly run false stories about Christmas being renamed Winterval or the latest "PC Gone Mad" bollocks, it has real, tangible consequences. If I had a penny for every time I've seen the words "...in case it offends Muslims" in a paper headline, I'd be as rich as the lying billionaire proprietors and their pathetic editors who serve up this incendiary tripe.

Seems hypocritical because this is a hate post.

 

[websaway]

I was absolutely delighted the little Japanese lad was found safe and well after his parents left him as a punishment and he disappeared.

 

[Toonz]

If you are referring to white British, that was not a slip of the tongue it's a demographic measurement. So let's just drop the racist card it's old hat and had it's day.

You're wrong. If you look back, you'll see that it was me who defended you after your 'white' remark:

I understand what you mean and your reference to 'white' was probably just a clumsy bit of categorisation rather than racism.​

So accusing me of using the racist card in response to you is misplaced.

That said, for you to now attempt to justify it on the grounds that "it's a demographic measurement" still doesn't explain why you felt it relevant to introduce that demographic measurement in the first place. After all, we weren't talking about race, we were talking about immigration.

It's funny, I often hear people with your views banging on about how, when you try to air your legitimate concerns about immigration, the nasty PC brigade call you racist. And yet - you were the one who brought up white people and made it about race.

 

[signature]

If you are referring to white British, that was not a slip of the tongue it's a demographic measurement. So let's just drop the racist card it's old hat and had it's day.

British values and culture and for those it's essential to leave the EU
and regain our own ability to govern our immigration policy.
If we don't leave then the future for white Britain looks bleak,
the next generation will be a minority.

At the last count its probably about 6% of the population are ethic minorities and 10% including others from the EU countries. You can argue that this needs controlling, you can argue immigration polices, arguing about immigration does not make anyone racist, but when you start saying "White Britain" that's a different meaning to 'White British'.

I want move away from this back and fort between you and I, we have a decision to make in 3 weeks, we need to be clear of pros and cons of the EU, we should not mix it up with failed government policies.

I don't know how I will vote either, there are positives and negatives on both sides, but basing a decision on situations that will arise either IN or OUT is a bit shallow.

 

[websaway]

You're wrong. If you look back, you'll see that it was me who defended you after your 'white' remark:

I understand what you mean and your reference to 'white' was probably just a clumsy bit of categorisation rather than racism.​

So accusing me of using the racist card in response to you is misplaced.

That said, for you to now attempt to justify it on the grounds that "it's a demographic measurement" still doesn't explain why you felt it relevant to introduce that demographic measurement in the first place. After all, we weren't talking about race, we were talking about immigration.

It's funny, I often hear people with your views banging on about how, when you try to air your legitimate concerns about immigration, the nasty PC brigade call you racist. And yet - you were the one who brought up white people and made it about race.

It wasn't clumsy, it was a measurement, parts of the UK have British white minorities, that's simply an observation, but it has huge cultural implications.