Who introduced drop catching at Nominet

[Sound]

You would kind of expect that attitude being on a *domain* forum about co.uk where domain buying-and-selling is most people's purpose here.

I understand that and am no angel but it does not make it right.

It is also the main problem that I have with some who are now scaremongering about the launch of .UK seem to want to have their cake and eat it........

 

[Bailey]

I agree with your Synopsis there Grant. Of course you can't pick-up prime real estate at 'Housing Estate' prices. But,in the Gtld world the whole drop process (or retention) is in the Public Arena - nothing is hidden or any individual having access that isn't easily available to any other (you don't require a Tag for a start)

 

[Bailey]

I'm speaking as someone who is not involved in the drop game and i I would appreciate if you could elaborate on how you arrive at the conclusion that the method has been anti competitive and anti business ?

It's not necessarily the process that is the measure - It's the Outcome. And if that passes you by, I can't help

 

[grantw]

But, the whole drop process (or retention) is in the Public Arena - nothing is hidden or any individual having access that isn't easily available to any other (you don't require a Tag for a start)

Yep, but in the same vein, you don't need a TAG to buy a domain that I've caught and I'll sell it to you without banging it out to auction and forcing you to fight it out with Mr Deep Pockets

The public nature of it just masks the negotiation and technical know how that's going on behind it, which isn't easily accessible to individuals - I believe it costs around £75k to become a Gtld registrar and get access to dropcatching abilities.

Nominets ongoing and upcoming domain expiry consultations may throw some light on what registrars can/can't do with expiring domains, at the moment it's a bit of a grey area:

http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-parti...ssions-and-consultations/domain-expiry-policy

Grant

 

[Bailey]

Thanks for the link Grant I will catch-up with that later.

It's nice that some of us are able to see the 'real pickle' that Nominet have got themselves into over the years. Instead of banging on about what outcome suits them best...

The success of the Gtld model probably comes down to "Big domain Businesses" having its say on the "hows and Whys" instead of the "dare I say it, the "Cottage industry persona" that surrounds most of uk domain operations.

 

[Bailey]

I believe its at the heart of Nominets problems and explains why they dislike domainers rather than domain investors it was like operating a broken cash-point machine that was giving away money year after year.

Spot-on. Its not as if any of the profits went back into infrastructure or development either (though I'm sure some did)

Trouble is you needed a card (tag) that the broken machine recognised

 

[grantw]

The success of the Gtld model probably comes down to "Big domain Businesses" having its say on the "hows and Whys" instead of the "dare I say it, the "Cottage industry persona" that surrounds most of uk domain operations.

I'd agree with that. My guess is that once .uk is released with a different expiry process (auctions!) Nominet will move the rest of the extensions over to the same process.

Domainers will then be bidding against each other for domains with potential to sell to end users for a decent profit. It will be more public but not that much will change apart from the price everyone (including joe public) has to pay for a domain! You only need to watch the Gtld auctions for a short while to see that a large amount of the top domains are won by domainers looking to resell.

Grant

 

[aZooZa]

The Nominet DAC wasn't designed for dropcatching. It was designed for high volume lookups for public-facing registrars with large query volume potential in the normal, day-to-day course of their business.

The easiest way for Nominet to address this is to come up with a DAC quota on a 'per registrar/member' basis based on the amount of domains registered under the members' tag(s). Although this solution wouldn't suit me; and I hope it's never implemented, I just proffer it as a quick solution to a problem and an 'old chestnut' that's been dragging on for years.

My preference is for Nominet to stop prevaricating on so many issues, and to close doors once premises have been visited -- not thrash them about for eons leaving those impacted in a permanent state of limbo, and no confidence in the market.

 

[Bailey]

Yep - a correction (I don't care how painful to some) to the current set-up is preferable to a reinvention of the wheel. (introduction of dot UK) It's not as if it impacts on past decisions from either side

Though I think it's possibly far too late in the day as far as Nominet is concerned. they are going to treat .co.uk like an old Company employee that misbehaved and has since left. (on second thoughts they're doing that already) Unfortunately that 'rogue' employee left 10,000,000 accounts that Nominet behold behind

 

[tifosi]

The Nominet DAC wasn't designed for dropcatching. It was designed for high volume lookups for public-facing registrars with large query volume potential in the normal, day-to-day course of their business.

The easiest way for Nominet to address this is to come up with a DAC quota on a 'per registrar/member' basis based on the amount of domains registered under the members' tag(s). Although this solution wouldn't suit me; and I hope it's never implemented, I just proffer it as a quick solution to a problem and an 'old chestnut' that's been dragging on for years.

That's thinking like a private registrar and not a public one. For a new public registrar having a hobbled dac account would be a severe disadvantage.

But they've already DONE this. They essentially split the dac a couple of years ago after 3-4yrs of it running fine, and created the time-delay dac. The real-time dac was essentially abandoned to the dropcatchers (by removing the suspended flag - though the reasons for they gave for this were pretty lame), and the time delay dac has the base allocation and domains-per-account topup.

 

[Bailey]

By the way - The outcome is that .co.uk & .uk will become a frivolous space. Perceived as :- (For a Country controlled level domain) No correcting mechanism inplace, no real effective parameters or control. A Bit third World really. (Thats the public belief thats coming)

As much as Nominet will subsequently try to correct that belief - the damage will have been done

 

[grantw]

Out of interest, as it's the closest thing to .uk, does anyone know how the .de drop process works?

Grant

 

[Bailey]

Out of interest, as it's the closest thing to .uk, does anyone know how the .de drop process works?

Grant

funny you should ask that Grant - crossed my mind as I was sticking with this thread this morning. perhaps we could learn something.



PS And off the subject But,

did anyone see the recent feature on Polands wish (featured on newsnight) for closer ties (and more intergration) with the Germans (just don't tell your grand parents)

* For those too young to remember - It was Germanys invasion (and annexing of Poland) that started the Second World War. Due to British guarantees to Poland to maintain and uphold that Countries right to independance

 

[Edwin]

Out of interest, as it's the closest thing to .uk, does anyone know how the .de drop process works?

Looks pretty similar http://www.dropcatcher.de/dropcatching.htm

 

[grantw]

Looks pretty similar http://www.dropcatcher.de/dropcatching.htm

Ah yep, cheers Edwin.

Would be nice to have a. de expert around here who can confirm whether the denic board and German public constantly bitch about dropcatchers and domainers as they do in the UK

Grant

 

[Edwin]

It's interesting seeing the GTLD references in this thread, because ICANN is widely derided for being super-corrupt and has never been held up as being a great model for anything. (Google "icann corruption" and you'll quickly see what I mean)

BTW, DeNic have far more useful FAQs than Nominet, e.g.
http://www.denic.de/en/faq-for-parties-interested-in-already-registered-domains.html
http://www.denic.de/en/faq-single/427.html

Here's the FAQ material that applies to .de drops
http://www.denic.de/en/faq-single/3437/1/245.html

 

[grantw]

It's interesting seeing the GTLD references in this thread, because ICANN is widely derided for being super-corrupt and has never been held up as being a great model for anything. (Google "icann corruption" and you'll quickly see what I mean)

Yep, well the registrars have basically taken over the majority of the expiry process and cut the registry out. I don't know enough to know whether that was a decision that was made or whether it was just allowed to happen.

I see where Bailey is coming from though, the whole thing has created a much more friendly/acceptable face for dropcatching. If you want a dropping Gtld, you go to snapnames/namejet and bid for it, end of. Most people seem to have accepted that that's the way it works. Anyone can login and bid without worrying about all that tech stuff and mysterious dropcatching nerds.

Grant

 

[Edwin]

I see where Bailey is coming from though, the whole thing has created a much more friendly/acceptable face for dropcatching. If you want a dropping Gtld, you go to snapnames/namejet and bid for it, end of. Most people seem to have accepted that that's the way it works. Anyone can login and bid without worrying about all that tech stuff and mysterious dropcatching nerds.

Actually, you have to also watch Namejet/Enom, Pool, Tdnam (Godaddy), Tucows and other places and STILL you won't have access to some of the names as the registrars help themselves to them before they ever drop. GTLD drops are a huge mess, and got into that state long before the UK namespace started to get messy.

Different registrars have backdoor deals with different drop catching services, so they will pass all/some of their drops to one particular drop catcher (e.g. a tie-up with Snapnames or Pool)

It's pretty much a full-time effort trying to stay on top of GTLD drops...

See for example http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2005/03/how-to-snatch-an-expiring-domain (7 year old article - the situation is MUCH worse now than then, but even back then it was utter chaos)

The .co.uk drops are heaven in comparison, despite any perceived inequalities of the current system.

 

[Bailey]

Edwin thanks for the German capture link

my references to Gtld aren't meant as a reflection of ICANN (good or bad). But, it's success as a "Market influenced Model"

You seem to miss the point (or forgot to mention) that GTLD domains are Wholly managed and controlled at the 'Registration service level' ICANN being purely a US lead Policy maker Only

Nominet on the other hand are the both the overseers, managers and instigators of Policy and of course registration management and ultimate judges of there own success (don't need to be corrupt in that scenario) Just Purely belligerent

As always Edwin you have a knack for only drawing attention to areas that you feel worth highlighting - very often omitting any overall picture that dosen't deliver your intended message. Glad to see your true to form

 

[Bailey]

It's pretty much a full-time effort trying to stay on top of GTLD drops...

See for example http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2005/03/how-to-snatch-an-expiring-domain (7 year old article - the situation is MUCH worse now than then, but even back then it was utter chaos)

The .co.uk drops are heaven in comparison, despite any perceived inequalities of the current system.

I'm glad you mention the inability of people to "Garner" the system - at the Gtld level

And so it bloody well should be - Hence (at the Gtld level) we have a "Market" and not the bloody cartel of the UK system - That Which of Course Nominet are now trying to fix (to being just their Cartel) before they 'Possibly' get thrown out of office