.wales – please fill in the Nominet consultation

[Stephen]

theoritical or anecdotal?

It should sell pretty well I imagine.

Did dotCymru undertake any studies on the projected take up the new domain or have any business groups/assocations that were strongly behind .cymru / wales or is the demand for these domains just theoritical or anecdotal?

 

[websaway]

Yes - I agree with this

Websaway - As Edwin said money doesn't grow on trees. I believe Nominet have already spent at least £500k on this. Where do you think it came from? And why do you think they now want to charge us £20 for a new .uk domain?
Interesting note in the ICANN application - says they will charge a competitive rate for the new .wales - so I don't think that will be charged out at £20 a year!

Nigel the question was, why is it your money they are spending, I can understand shareholder money and to a lesser extent tax payers money but I'm wondering why you use the expression in this instance of "spending our money"

 

[Edwin]

Nigel the question was, why is it your money they are spending, I can understand shareholder money and to a lesser extent tax payers money but I'm wondering why you use the expression in this instance of "spending our money"

Nominet's money overwhelmingly comes from the registration/renewal fees they charge domain owners. As such, it's - in a certain sense - originally the money of anyone who owns a domain name. And since the surplus is effectively a forced levy (you can't pay Nominet just the actual cost of a domain name even though they're supposed to run the registry on a cost-collection basis - you have to pay them the slice that goes into the surplus they hand to the Nominet Trust as well) it's again "our money" in that sense.

But of course they're a company just like any other - once you hand over the cash and receive your product/service, that's generally as far as your say over that money goes in practice. But as an "expression" it's easy to see why it feels like "our money" (i.e. the money of all domain owners) - and it's also why money flushed down the Nominet Trust drain instead of being spent on domain-related things feels so irritating.

 

[websaway]

Nominet's money overwhelmingly comes from the registration/renewal fees they charge domain owners. As such, it's - in a certain sense - originally the money of anyone who owns a domain name. And since the surplus is effectively a forced levy (you can't pay Nominet just the actual cost of a domain name even though they're supposed to run the registry on a cost-collection basis - you have to pay them the slice that goes into the surplus they hand to the Nominet Trust as well) it's again "our money" in that sense.

But of course they're a company just like any other - once you hand over the cash and receive your product/service, that's generally as far as your say over that money goes in practice. But as an "expression" it's easy to see why it feels like "our money" (i.e. the money of all domain owners) - and it's also why money flushed down the Nominet Trust drain instead of being spent on domain-related things feels so irritating.

So when Nigel refers to "our money they are spending, he means by "our" that is anybody who has registered a domain name" is that correct ?

 

[Nigel]

So when Nigel refers to "our money they are spending, he means by "our" that is anybody who has registered a domain name" is that correct ?

Yes - that's correct - every penny Nominet has, or has ever spent/donated has come from the cost of a .uk registration fee/transfer fee.

 

[Edwin]

Yes - that's correct - every penny Nominet has, or has ever spent/donated has come from the cost of a .uk registration fee/transfer fee.

Which is why it's VERY frustrating they throw it away on Nominet Trust activities rather than on furthering the domain industry.

 

[websaway]

Yes - that's correct - every penny Nominet has, or has ever spent/donated has come from the cost of a .uk registration fee/transfer fee.

I must say I initially feel that that is a convenient and over simplified way of looking at things, but that may be because I am not an expert on nominets rules of operation.

 

[Nigel]

Which is why it's VERY frustrating they throw it away on Nominet Trust activities rather than on furthering the domain industry.

You're entitled to your view Edwin. My view is that it is no co-incidence that the £20 .uk domain was proposed at around the same time as the .wales and .cymru was announced. I do believe there will be heavy subsidy from .uk to .wales/.cymru. That has already happened. I just feel we should leave the Welsh to run their own domain registry. Which would have happened if Nominet had just left them to their own devices. Of course if Wales hadn't got an alternative then that would have been a different matter. But Nominet should have then asked the Welsh government for assistance with setting up costs - which could have been refunded if the project was successful.

It's interesting that, according to the ICANN application that .wales and .cymru will be offered at a competitive registration fee. I think that means it will vastly lower than the extortionate £20 a year they suggested for direct.uk. So nominet tagged 'security features' on ours and call it a 'safer' domain. No doubt so we can't accuse them of discrimination in terms of pricing. Be interested to see how much a .wales domain is offered for. I imagine Nominet already know. Has anyone got any idea?

Of course surplus should be allocated back to existing registrants. Nominet is after all a 'non profit' organisation themselves. But the trust has, in my view, become for many nominet executives a benchmark of nominet's success. It features highly on the nominet website and I see it is prominent on the CEO's profile. So donations to the trust will, I believe, remain strong and .uk registrants will be tapped as much as possible to produce the extra money for projects like .wales and .cymru and also to ensure that the trust has monies flowing in. After all, there are a lot of projects now depending on that money.

 

[Edwin]

You're entitled to your view Edwin. My view is that it is no co-incidence that the £20 .uk domain was proposed at around the same time as the .wales and .cymru was announced. I do believe there will be heavy subsidy from .uk to .wales/.cymru. That has already happened. I just feel we should leave the Welsh to run their own domain registry. Which would have happened if Nominet had just left them to their own devices. Of course if Wales hadn't got an alternative then that would have been a different matter. But Nominet should have then asked the Welsh government for assistance with setting up costs - which could have been refunded if the project was successful.

Of course it's no coincidence! But not for financial reasons. It's because of the forthcoming slew of new GTLD (of which .wales and .cymru are just 2 out of 1,000 in the first batch, and thousands more in years to come) that Nominet have rushed out the idea of direct.uk and have tried to paint it as a "new" domain like the new GTLD will be.

It's interesting that, according to the ICANN application that .wales and .cymru will be offered at a competitive registration fee. I think that means it will vastly lower than the extortionate £20 a year they suggested for direct.uk. So nominet tagged 'security features' on ours and call it a 'safer' domain. No doubt so we can't accuse them of discrimination in terms of pricing. Be interested to see how much a .wales domain is offered for. I imagine Nominet already know. Has anyone got any idea?

New GTLD will range from anywhere between the approx. $10/year of .com and $50/year or more depending on the GTLD and its purpose. So there is definitely scope for Nominet to charge £20/year if they want to and not look outrageous.

It's important to stop thinking of .wales/.cymru in .co.uk terms - they are "real" GTLD and therefore should be compared with other GTLD and not with a cctld.

Of course surplus should be allocated back to existing registrants. Nominet is after all a 'non profit' organisation themselves. But the trust has, in my view, become for many nominet executives a benchmark of nominet's success. It features highly on the nominet website and I see it is prominent on the CEO's profile. So donations to the trust will, I believe, remain strong and .uk registrants will be tapped as much as possible to produce the extra money for projects like .wales and .cymru and also to ensure that the trust has monies flowing in. After all, there are a lot of projects now depending on that money.

And that is at the heart of my contention that the Trust is a self-aggrandisement project. I agree entirely with what you say, except for the part about producing extra money for .wales and .cymru.

 

[anthony]

...And that is at the heart of my contention that the Trust is a self-aggrandisement project.

Seconded! Despite that, many members simply didn't see the problem in the making, and now it exists, there is nothing they can do to dismantle the thing!

 

[Stephen]

Seconded! Despite that, many members simply didn't see the problem in the making, and now it exists, there is nothing they can do to dismantle the thing!

or is their?

But this debate probably belongs more .uk, although .wales is partly about how Nominet are spending money and is it within there mandate and is it the best way to spend the money when so many other "UK domain related" objectives go unfunded.

 

[websaway]

or is their?

But this debate probably belongs more .uk, although .wales is partly about how Nominet are spending money and is it within there mandate and is it the best way to spend the money when so many other "UK domain related" objectives go unfunded.

I can't see how .wales ( for Nominet ) could possibly operate in the long term at a loss.

 

[Stephen]

.wales will never show a loss?

I can't see how .wales ( for Nominet ) could possibly operate in the long term at a loss.

.wales will never show a loss whilst the current disclosure on costs and rules on cross acounting are followed at Nominet.

Nominet would loose face if .wales was not a success and showed a loss and I believe they will minipulate and misrepresnt any piece of information to show that it is a success whatever the actual outcome with .wales/.cymru

With the money from .co.uk and .org.uk and the huge surplus they generate it would be easy to subsidize .wales / .cymru on a long term basis.

What is happening with .scot, .ni and .eng?

 

[websaway]

.wales will never show a loss whilst the current disclosure on costs and rules on cross acounting are followed at Nominet.

Nominet would loose face if .wales was not a success and showed a loss and I believe they will minipulate and misrepresnt any piece of information to show that it is a success whatever the actual outcome with .wales/.cymru

With the money from .co.uk and .org.uk and the huge surplus they generate it would be easy to subsidize .wales / .cymru on a long term basis.

What is happening with .scot, .ni and .eng?

I think this is where we can't stop change. We can object to it but the trend is towards multiple extensions for domain names.
My argument about .uk is different it is simply the fact that the uk business domain space has already been sold.
I'm not sure where my pure arguement would be if Nominet somehow simply said the .uk is a geo and not for business use.

 

[Nigel]

I can't see how .wales ( for Nominet ) could possibly operate in the long term at a loss.

I can - they are committed (see the Welsh government release and ICANN) applications to open an office in Wales for nine customer service staff. Other operations will be run from Oxford. This will be quite a small but complex registry for Nominet to run i.e. two languages - two domains - two locations. They have probably already spent between £500k (my view) and £1m (Stephen's view). The new forum member dotcymru revealed earlier today the extent of Nominet's efforts - going far beyond normal registry activity - including paying for a lobbying firm. I think a lot of the Oxford based costs will never be revealed or properly costed. In the consultation document Nominet used .nyc as an example of the cost of running the registry. No mention of the actual costs and complexities.

We want Nominet to be open and frank on the costings. And the details on how the Oxford based work/cost will be recorded.

 

[websaway]

I can - they are committed (see the Welsh government release and ICANN) applications to open an office in Wales for nine customer service staff. Other operations will be run from Oxford. This will be quite a small but complex registry for Nominet to run i.e. two languages - two domains - two locations. They have probably already spent between £500k (my view) and £1m (Stephen's view). The new forum member dotcymru revealed earlier today the extent of Nominet's efforts - going far beyond normal registry activity - including paying for a lobbying firm. I think a lot of the Oxford based costs will never be revealed or properly costed. In the consultation document Nominet used .nyc as an example of the cost of running the registry. No mention of the actual costs and complexities.

We want Nominet to be open and frank on the costings. And the details on how the Oxford based work/cost will be recorded.

1,000,000 registrations at £20 = bingo

 

[Stephen]

if only life was simple

1,000,000 registrations at £20 = bingo

Nominet in the application to ICANN, after 2 years they believe there will only be 40,000 domains

40,000 @ £20 = £800,000

cheaper price more domains but for .wales I think there will be a limited very market

What happens if the take up is not their or they charge £5 pa?

40,000 @ £5 = £200,000 pa

that amount will not be enough for the Wales office with 9 staff, never mind covering Nominet other specific marketing, ICANNfees, legal costs 100% relating .wales

Never mind the recovery of the initial £1 million and the ongoing internal Nominet costs relating to the 2 domains.

 

[Stephen]

Tuesday 29 January

Nominet .wales

Sign up for the domains for Wales webinar on Tuesday 29 January.

http://www.keysurvey.co.uk/votingmodule/s180/f/482693/1254/

 

[dotCymru]

Nominet in the application to ICANN, after 2 years they believe there will only be 40,000 domains

40,000 @ £20 = £800,000

cheaper price more domains but for .wales I think there will be a limited very market

What happens if the take up is not their or they charge £5 pa?

40,000 @ £5 = £200,000 pa

that amount will not be enough for the Wales office with 9 staff, never mind covering Nominet other specific marketing, ICANNfees, legal costs 100% relating .wales

Never mind the recovery of the initial £1 million and the ongoing internal Nominet costs relating to the 2 domains.

It was always difficult to estimate how many domains would be sold. .cat took about 5 years I think to sell 50,000 domains and they have 3 times the population of Wales. But they haven't done any marketing so 40,000 in Wales with a lot spent on marketing may be possible. They may sell 10,000 in two years and may sell 100,000.

dotCYM would have been very comfortable with 40,000 domains sold at £10 each. I doubt Nominet would make a profit at that cost though, especially with 9 staff in Wales and all their other costs. But the Welsh Government or civil servants won't force them to stick to their promises. I'm sure some Nominet Trust money in Wales will take care of that.

 

[Nigel]

It was always difficult to estimate how many domains would be sold. .cat took about 5 years I think to sell 50,000 domains and they have 3 times the population of Wales. But they haven't done any marketing so 40,000 in Wales with a lot spent on marketing may be possible. They may sell 10,000 in two years and may sell 100,000.

dotCYM would have been very comfortable with 40,000 domains sold at £10 each. I doubt Nominet would make a profit at that cost though, especially with 9 staff in Wales and all their other costs. But the Welsh Government or civil servants won't force them to stick to their promises. I'm sure some Nominet Trust money in Wales will take care of that.

Thanks for the info dotcymru. I was reading a well written report by the OFT entitled
Abuse of a Dominant Position - understanding competition law
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/ca98_guidelines/oft402.pdf

I'm not sure of this but could it also be referred to the Competition Commission - on the basis that Nominet already operate an effective monopoly in the UK as the only relevant Domain Registry? Surely it would have been healthier for the new country codes to be operated by another entity. Strange that they didn't automatically look into Nominet taking control of the Welsh domain - or do these things have to be referred to them first?