.wales – please fill in the Nominet consultation

[websaway]

I was one of the directors of dotCYM Ltd that was started about 6 years ago in order to apply for and manage a TLD for the Welsh community. For 4 years during a coalition Government, a Plaid Cymru Minister was responsible for the TLD issue and he supported working with a Welsh not-for-profit company answerable to the Welsh community. However, the civil servant responsible for the TLD was against applying for a TLD but if it was going to happen then she was determined to ensure that Nominet owned and controlled the TLD.

After the latest elections, Labour had a majority and the new Labour Minister, Edwina Hart, refused to meet or discuss our previous 5 years of work with us, decided that no finanical support would come from the Welsh Government and that we would have to compete against Nominet in an RFP. I've submitted a FoI request asking for the communication between Nominet and the civil servants in order to try to understand the relationship between them and how Nominet would have persuaded the civil servants to give away the community's TLD in a manner that the Scots, Basques, Galicians, Catalans, Bretons, etc. wouldn't have dreamt of doing. The response was a refusal to release that information since it could lead to campaigns against the government.

I've had nothing to do with TLDs for nearly a year now but I heard that there was a discussion on this forum so I thought I'd join. If you have any questions for me then I'm happy to share any information I have with you.

So .wales or the like has been inevitable for some years and It was just a matter of who runs it. Is that a fair observation.

 

[dotCymru]

So .wales or the like has been inevitable for some years and It was just a matter of who runs it. Is that a fair observation.

A TLD for the Welsh Community has been inevitable for many years.

We first aimed for .cym but due to ICANN rule changes a few years ago which meant we weren't able to use the 'cym' String since it was the three-letter country code for the Cayman Islands, we were going to apply for .cymru. We started off by saying that it would be a TLD for the Welsh linguistic and cultural community worldwide and our business plan made it clear that all businesses in Wales were included in the 'linguistic and cultural community'.

Nominet kept going to the Minister in Wales, as well as the Scottish Government, to tell them to ignore dotCYM and dotScot (our Scottish equivalent) and to work with them only. The Scottish and Welsh Governments told them that they thought that the Welsh and Scottish people should own their own TLDs. Nominet had no chance to take control of the Scottish TLD unless Labour took power again. In Wales they waited until the elections and then came to Wales and used a Welsh lobbying company and some individuals to go to the Welsh politicians to tell them that dotCYM wanted to create a TLD that would only be available to Welsh speakers whereas Nominet would create a TLD for Welsh businesses and everyone in Wales. They knew that they were misrepresenting us and lying but we didn't have the resources that they had to visit every politician and we didn't have the financial means to use the law to stop them.

Nominet came to Wales to say that the TLD would be of little use to Welsh language or culture but would bring wealth to the country if it was .wales instead of .cymru. It would not be possible for them to apply for .wales only so they had to apply for .cymru as well. But they're guaranteed to not bother marketing it. Their disdain of the Welsh language was shown when they created their website for the TLD. The Welsh version was translated using Google Translate so was a very bad translation.

 

[Nigel]

A TLD for the Welsh Community has been inevitable for many years.

We first aimed for .cym but due to ICANN rule changes a few years ago which meant we weren't able to use the 'cym' String since it was the three-letter country code for the Cayman Islands, we were going to apply for .cymru. We started off by saying that it would be a TLD for the Welsh linguistic and cultural community worldwide and our business plan made it clear that all businesses in Wales were included in the 'linguistic and cultural community'.

Nominet kept going to the Minister in Wales, as well as the Scottish Government, to tell them to ignore dotCYM and dotScot (our Scottish equivalent) and to work with them only. The Scottish and Welsh Governments told them that they thought that the Welsh and Scottish people should own their own TLDs. Nominet had no chance to take control of the Scottish TLD unless Labour took power again. In Wales they waited until the elections and then came to Wales and used a Welsh lobbying company and some individuals to go to the Welsh politicians to tell them that dotCYM wanted to create a TLD that would only be available to Welsh speakers whereas Nominet would create a TLD for Welsh businesses and everyone in Wales. They knew that they were misrepresenting us and lying but we didn't have the resources that they had to visit every politician and we didn't have the financial means to use the law to stop them.

Nominet came to Wales to say that the TLD would be of little use to Welsh language or culture but would bring wealth to the country if it was .wales instead of .cymru. It would not be possible for them to apply for .wales only so they had to apply for .cymru as well. But they're guaranteed to not bother marketing it. Their disdain of the Welsh language was shown when they created their website for the TLD. The Welsh version was translated using Google Translate so was a very bad translation.

Good Morning - DotCymru - Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for posting a lot of interesting information. Just got a couple of questions for the moment.

I was disturbed that your request under the Freedom of Information Act failed. A number of people have made such requests about direct.uk and useful information was released. Have you no right of appeal on this? It seems grossly unfair to me.

Graeme on here suggested that there may be an opportunity for someone to refer Nominet's actions on .Wales to the oft. He pasted some relevant passages in respect of anti-competitive behaviour, abuse of a dominant position etc. It seems likely that Nominet are using existing funds (funds provided by existing .uk registrants) to throw at the .wales and .cymru launch. It will be an expensive project and a lot of us believe, that it will be subsidised for many years to come. I believe you had the right to a level playing field when competing for the .cymru domain. Have you considered referring this to the oft.

It seems that Nominet only really wanted .wales whereas you, it appears, were interested in .cymru. As you represent the Welsh speaking section of your society why couldn't the two domains be run separately. I'm still not saying its right that Nominet run .wales from England but it would certainly seem a lot fairer that .cymru was still allocated to your organisation and run by you in Wales. Seems that .cymru would be a lot more popular extension if it was run in that way.

What do you make of Nominet's original promise of running an office in Wales with nine staff (there was a release by the Welsh Government saying this)? Are nominet reneging on this promise. Have you seen the latest information on Nominet which suggests outsourcing the customer service and giving just 4 hours a week of customer service after 6 months. It doesn't make sense to us. What do you think?

I'm sure we'll all have a lot more questions but that's the first ones I can think of.

Kind regards,

Nigel

 

[dotCymru]

Good Morning - DotCymru - Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for posting a lot of interesting information. Just got a couple of questions for the moment.

I was disturbed that your request under the Freedom of Information Act failed. A number of people have made such requests about direct.uk and useful information was released. Have you no right of appeal on this? It seems grossly unfair to me.

Graeme on here suggested that there may be an opportunity for someone to refer Nominet's actions on .Wales to the oft. He pasted some relevant passages in respect of anti-competitive behaviour, abuse of a dominant position etc. It seems likely that Nominet are using existing funds (funds provided by existing .uk registrants) to throw at the .wales and .cymru launch. It will be an expensive project and a lot of us believe, that it will be subsidised for many years to come. I believe you had the right to a level playing field when competing for the .cymru domain. Have you considered referring this to the oft.

It seems that Nominet only really wanted .wales whereas you, it appears, were interested in .cymru. As you represent the Welsh speaking section of your society why couldn't the two domains be run separately. I'm still not saying its right that Nominet run .wales from England but it would certainly seem a lot fairer that .cymru was still allocated to your organisation and run by you in Wales. Seems that .cymru would be a lot more popular extension if it was run in that way.

What do you make of Nominet's original promise of running an office in Wales with nine staff (there was a release by the Welsh Government saying this)? Are nominet reneging on this promise. Have you seen the latest information on Nominet which suggests outsourcing the customer service and giving just 4 hours a week of customer service after 6 months. It doesn't make sense to us. What do you think?

I'm sure we'll all have a lot more questions but that's the first ones I can think of.

Kind regards,

Nigel

Good morning Nigel,

We did consider complaining to the OFT but didn't have the time or money to do so and was unable to find a lawyer or barrister to do it pro bono. Not only will Nominet use current funds for the launch but they used a considerable amount of funds from selling .uk domains to kill our venture. Whereas we depended on volunteers until the Government gave the us money they had promised us to fund us, Nominet paid a lobbying company from Cardiff (Positif Politics), paid for research and public survey (which were biased to how Nominet staff in Oxford thought what the Welsh people needed) and created a Welsh Advisory Committee. These would have cost a very considerable amount. On top of that they had to pay one of the members of the Advisory Committee to travel to meet Welsh politicians in Cardiff and London to lie about dotCYM's intent. Glen Hayward from Nominet was usually visiting the politicians as well I believe, and possibly Barroness Fritchie.

I only had time to meet a few politicians, and it was much more difficult to organise it since I didn't have a powerful lobbying group behind me. Every politician I met was disgusted by the lies they had been told by Nominet and each one promised to help in some way or other. For example, they would write to Edwina Hart, the Minister in Wales responsible for a Welsh TLD, or they would write to Ed Vaizey, since he was responsible for giving the applicant a letter of no objection. Edwina Hart's response would be "it's a fair fight between both parties, may the best man win", and this is what she told Ed Vaizey who would respond in the same way to these politicians. This would have been a great way for the Conservative party to embarrass the Labour Party in Wales, but Ed Vaizey knows Nominet well, has talked in their events and may even be Lesley Cowley's MP, although I haven't confirmed that.

As for the FoI, I have appealed once and failed but now have the chance to appeal to the Information Commissioner but I've been holding back for nearly a year because I haven't had time to prepare a strong appeal and I would like some legal advise to maximise my chances of succeeding but don't have the money to do that. I'll read Graeme's notes to see if they can be of use with the FoI or the OFT. As for dotCYM Ltd the company, we've closed it down since there was no purpose to it other than to run the Welsh TLD.

There was no point in us running .cymru and Nominet running .wales. I think that anyone who buys a .wales domain should get the .cymru domain with it, and vice-versa. It would only dilute the Welsh brand online if they competed against each other. But we would have been happy to apply for both but it would cost $185,000 extra for the application.

This is another way that the Government ensured that we wouldn't be able to compete against Nominet. We had a loan ready for $185,000 for the application in case the Government changed its mind and refused to fund us. But the RFP required that both domains would be applied for which they knew would leave us $185,000 short. They also released the RFP just before Christmas with a deadline very early in January, making it impossible for us to talk to anyone regarding funding since companies were closed and people on holiday.

I hadn't heard about Nominet's promised to have a staff of 9 in Wales or the 4 hour customer service. The staff of 9 seems quite a lot for such a small domain when all the technical work is done in Oxford. 4 hours of customer service is ridiculous! That must be joke.

Nominet said to the politicians that they would run the Welsh TLD at no profit at all, with all profits re-invested in the Welsh economy. This is exactly what we had said for years, but the difference of course is our definition of profits. No one at the Welsh Government will check how they work out their profits. Lesleys £250,000+ salary has to be paid first and I'm sure that the overheads with the bloated company in Oxford are going to be huge. And they'll have to pay the consultant and lobbyists and their Advisory Committee.

A note on the Advisory Committee that they created. Whereas our AC was going to be made up of experts in Welsh business, IT, culture, etc. they created an AC made up of a few friends of the Welsh Labour Government, including an ex-Minister who's one of Edwina Hart's best friends, Andrew Davies. They threw in a stereotypical ex-rugby player to please the masses as well as an ex-Conservative AM who was most probably desperate to be on a Board or Committee, whether it was beneficial to Wales or not. So they created an AC that would buy them the TLD, whereas we naively wanted an AC that would be able to advise us wisely on the running of a TLD.

 

[Edwin]

It's great that you're so forthcoming about the dotCymru failed bid, but I don't understand (from what you've posted) how you expected to do it on such a shoestring? The US$185,000 is only the beginning - there are hefty annual fees to ICANN too, and massive legal costs dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s on their incredibly long, complex application form and associated contracts, and applicants would also have had to tie up additional funding such that the total cost of applying for ANY new GTLD has been estimated by various sources to be at least US$500,000.

As such (and leaving aside competition issues) it genuinely seems to me that Nominet was the only horse in this particular race with the potential funding to meet ICANN's incredibly strict/greedy requirements that ALL newGTLD applicants have to meet.

 

[Nigel]

Thanks for all the info dotcymru. Shocking story - particularly when you consider that Welsh people fought for the right to have powers devolved. There's a lot of info there and might come back later. Just thought I'd let you know that I can now identify nine staff from the ICANN applications. On the .cymru application it says "five full time equivalent" and on the .wales one it says "four full time equivalent". I think the extra hours that appear on both application in numerous places must be extra hours in addition to the nine full time equivalent staff. It does say those nine staff will be based in Wales.

.wales icann application
http://gtldresult.icann.org/applica...status/viewstatus:viewapplicationdetails/1419

.cymru icann application
http://gtldresult.icann.org/application-result/applicationstatus/applicationdetails/1420

 

[dotCymru]

It's great that you're so forthcoming about the dotCymru failed bid, but I don't understand (from what you've posted) how you expected to do it on such a shoestring? The US$185,000 is only the beginning - there are hefty annual fees to ICANN too, and massive legal costs dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s on their incredibly long, complex application form and associated contracts, and applicants would also have had to tie up additional funding such that the total cost of applying for ANY new GTLD has been estimated by various sources to be at least US$500,000.

As such (and leaving aside competition issues) it genuinely seems to me that Nominet was the only horse in this particular race with the potential funding to meet ICANN's incredibly strict/greedy requirements that ALL newGTLD applicants have to meet.

We had asked the Welsh Government for over $500,000 and the Minister responsible before Edwina Hart, Ieuan Wyn Jones (IWJ), had promised us the funding. We had no intention of doing this on a shoestring. But Ieuan Wyn Jones was pretty useless. He didn't really understand what a TLD was and he had no control over his officers who had an unhealthy relationship with Nominet. So we found the $185,000 as backup in case IWJ failed to find the money. We would then have been able to apply for the TLD and it would give us money to find the extra money which we needed, which would have been much easier once the application was in.

You're right to say that Nominet were the only horse in the race, and that's because the Welsh Government made sure that they were the only horse in the race by reneging on their promise of funding us. We set dotCYM up to work with the Government to ensure a TLD for Wales in the same way as dotScot worked with the Scottish Government, pointBzh with the Breton council, puntoGal with the Galician Government, etc. We were there to ensure that the Welsh people had control of their own TLD and to create a competition then in the market when it came to registrars and other services. We weren't set up to compete against a large foreign corporation since it made no sense to give it to such a body. It's like giving .uk to VeriSign.

 

[Nigel]

It's great that you're so forthcoming about the dotCymru failed bid, but I don't understand (from what you've posted) how you expected to do it on such a shoestring? The US$185,000 is only the beginning - there are hefty annual fees to ICANN too, and massive legal costs dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s on their incredibly long, complex application form and associated contracts, and applicants would also have had to tie up additional funding such that the total cost of applying for ANY new GTLD has been estimated by various sources to be at least US$500,000.

As such (and leaving aside competition issues) it genuinely seems to me that Nominet was the only horse in this particular race with the potential funding to meet ICANN's incredibly strict/greedy requirements that ALL newGTLD applicants have to meet.

I think that is an unfair assumption Edwin. Nominet ended up the only horse because they are using our money to fund this project. Some level playing field! Of course dotcym.org could have run the registry. They had a lot of supporters and just needed the Welsh Government to fulfull the pledge they had made. But Nominet just waved the cash - our cash!

 

[websaway]

I think that is an unfair assumption Edwin. Nominet ended up the only horse because they are using our money to fund this project. Some level playing field! Of course dotcym.org could have run the registry. They had a lot of supporters and just needed the Welsh Government to fulfull the pledge they had made. But Nominet just waved the cash - our cash!

Am I missing something Nigel. Why is it your money?

 

[Stephen]

attachments

.wales icann application
http://gtldresult.icann.org/applica...status/viewstatus:viewapplicationdetails/1419

.cymru icann application
http://gtldresult.icann.org/application-result/applicationstatus/applicationdetails/1420

I just noticed those links as well as the public portion of the application link to ICANN also have 7 attachments to the application linked at the bottom of the page.

 

[Edwin]

I think that is an unfair assumption Edwin. Nominet ended up the only horse because they are using our money to fund this project. Some level playing field! Of course dotcym.org could have run the registry. They had a lot of supporters and just needed the Welsh Government to fulfull the pledge they had made. But Nominet just waved the cash - our cash!

Whereas dotCymru would have waved taxpayer cash. I don't see how that's "better" - it doesn't grow on trees!

At least Nominet is doing something actually "domain related" for a change with part of the surplus they drain off domain reg fees, not simply pouring it down the drain on jolly projects via their Trust arm. As such, I see it as an improvement over their usual practice of simply handing it over for the Trust to splurge.

 

[Nigel]

Whereas dotCymru would have waved taxpayer cash. I don't see how that's "better" - it doesn't grow on trees!

At least Nominet is doing something actually "domain related" for a change with part of the surplus they drain off domain reg fees, not simply pouring it down the drain on jolly projects via their Trust arm. As such, I see it as an improvement over their usual practice of simply handing it over for the Trust to splurge.

It would have been Welsh taxpayer tax i.e. allocated by the Welsh government to a Welsh domain.

 

[Edwin]

It would have been Welsh taxpayer tax i.e. allocated by the Welsh government to a Welsh domain.

Oh, that's suddenly ok then?

Put another way: granting Nominet the right to pursue .wales/.cymru SAVED the Welsh government US$500,000 (plus potentially tens of thousands more a year, every year). In the teeth of the worst recession in a hundred years, doesn't that sound like SENSIBLE government?

I had a great deal more sympathy for the dotCymru team until I learned their primary source of funding was going to ultimately be the taxpayer under their preferred Plan A.

Worth noting for context: the entire budget for "Business, Enterprise, Technology& Science" in Wales in 2013/2014 is only £313,658,000 - applying for .cymru would have required 0.1% of that!

 

[Stephen]

How to spend the money?

Am I missing something Nigel. Why is it your money?

My point of view it is how Nominet are spending the money, although Nominet derive the money from UK domain registrations and renewals it gives us no rights on how they spend it as domain owners.

As registrars you could argue it gives us more rights to question the spend?

But we should all know how Nominet spend it and we can surely voice an opinion as to whether that is the best use of those monies for the benefit of the UK namespace, which is their stated aim.

Maybe Nominet could have spent the £1 million it has so far cost on .wales/.cymru on alternatives:

1. Making domain transfers free of charge by waiving the £12 charge.
2. Providing DNSSEC to all UK domains for free.
3. Adding more included security to the UK namespace without more cost to the renewal fee.
4. Public awareness campaign on the benefits of .co.uk on a larger budget
5. Help develop a professional aftermarket for UK domain names?
6. Provide more access to database via PRSS free of charge.
7. Lauching .uk domain as a free migration from .co.uk owners?
8. Pay for some proper independent studies on how to help and develop the UK internet to create more jobs.

As there is no Government oversight it seems to fall to domainers to ask for more transparency and explanations, which I hope will benefit the UK namspace not just domainers interests.

 

[Nigel]

Oh, that's suddenly ok then?

Put another way: granting Nominet the right to pursue .wales/.cymru SAVED the Welsh government US$500,000 (plus potentially tens of thousands more a year, every year). In the teeth of the worst recession in a hundred years, doesn't that sound like SENSIBLE government?

I had a great deal more sympathy for the dotCymru team until I learned their primary source of funding was going to ultimately be the taxpayer under their preferred Plan A.

Well yes - its much better that this project is fully costed and charged to the Welsh people and the Welsh government. That will never be done if it is merged into the .uk registry. I also think that the Welsh speaking people would have taken to a Welsh run registry far better. It would have been THEIR registry. So I imagine there would have been far greater number of registrations. The expenses and staffing costs may have been lower too. Having everything conducted in one Welsh office. Seems like nominet are outsourcing customer services to Wales, whereas executive decisions, technical issues will be dealt with in Oxford.

Question to dotcymru - will you be buying a .wales or .cymru domain? What is the feeling towards the new domains amongst the welsh speaking population. Do you think it will be used whilst it is run by Nominet?

 

[Nigel]

My point of view it is how Nominet are spending the money, although Nominet derive the money from UK domain registrations and renewals it gives us no rights on how they spend it as domain owners.

As registrars you could argue it gives us more rights to question the spend?

But we should all know how Nominet spend it and we can surely voice an opinion as to whether that is the best use of those monies for the benefit of the UK namespace, which is their stated aim.

Maybe Nominet could have spent the £1 million it has so far cost on .wales/.cymru on alternatives:

1. Making domain transfers free of charge by waiving the £12 charge.
2. Providing DNSSEC to all UK domains for free.
3. Adding more included security to the UK namespace without more cost to the renewal fee.
4. Public awareness campaign on the benefits of .co.uk on a larger budget
5. Help develop a professional aftermarket for UK domain names?
6. Provide more access to database via PRSS free of charge.
7. Lauching .uk domain as a free migration from .co.uk owners?
8. Pay for some proper independent studies on how to help and develop the UK internet to create more jobs.

As there is no Government oversight it seems to fall to domainers to ask for more transparency and explanations, which I hope will benefit the UK namspace not just domainers interests.

Yes - I agree with this

Websaway - As Edwin said money doesn't grow on trees. I believe Nominet have already spent at least £500k on this. Where do you think it came from? And why do you think they now want to charge us £20 for a new .uk domain?
Interesting note in the ICANN application - says they will charge a competitive rate for the new .wales - so I don't think that will be charged out at £20 a year!

 

[dotCymru]

Sorry Edwin, I failed to point out that the Minister had refused to give us a grant for the money, it was a loan, which with a successful TLD would have been repaid quickly, so the Government would not have lost out. And since our profits would be reinvested in the Welsh economy, that loan would have been a great investment for the Welsh Government.

 

[dotCymru]

Question to dotcymru - will you be buying a .wales or .cymru domain? What is the feeling towards the new domains amongst the welsh speaking population. Do you think it will be used whilst it is run by Nominet?

It isn't just the Welsh-speaking community that's losing out here. There's a lot of resentment in Wales towards Nominet and all parties involved by both Welsh-speakers and non-Welsh-speakers. But only a very small percentage of the people of Wales know or understand what's happened so I don't think it will make much difference to the sales of the domain. It should sell pretty well I imagine.

 

[Stephen]

grant v loan?

Sorry Edwin, I failed to point out that the Minister had refused to give us a grant for the money, it was a loan, which with a successful TLD would have been repaid quickly, so the Government would not have lost out. And since our profits would be reinvested in the Welsh economy, that loan would have been a great investment for the Welsh Government.

Nominet have stated if there is a windfall on the 4 auction stages for .wales/.cymru then they would make an extra special donation to good wales social projects.

Nominet have not stated what amount they have spent to date on .wales, some have quoted £500,000 I believe the amount to be £1 million with internal reallocated costs and launch costs to come before they see any registation fees.

Nominet have also not stated whether those upfront costs will be effectively repaid to Nominet UK?

 

[Edwin]

Websaway - As Edwin said money doesn't grow on trees. I believe Nominet have already spent at least £500k on this. Where do you think it came from? And why do you think they now want to charge us £20 for a new .uk domain?
Interesting note in the ICANN application - says they will charge a competitive rate for the new .wales - so I don't think that will be charged out at £20 a year!

No relation at all with the proposed £20 for .uk domains - that's just raw, naked greed on Nominet's part to try and milk as much as possible from this new windfall source of earnings.

Nominet already runs a multi-million pound surplus every year, and at the moment most of that gets signed over as a blank cheque to Nominet Trust for them to splash on vaguely webby things and promote Nominet's good name (you only have to see the amount of press that N.T. gets constantly to realise just what a fantastic self-aggrandisement exercise it is for Nominet)

As such, ANYTHING that's more related to domains than Nominet Trust would in my mind be a preferrable use of the surplus than throwing it down the NT drain! And .wales/.cymru is MUCH more relevant than NT.

That's not to say it's the most relevant use - other examples in recent posts may well be "better still" but it's already a vast improvement over NT.

Again, context is everything. Nominet handed a £5,000,000 cheque to Nominet Trust in the 2011 financial year - that was enough to pay for .wales/.cymru 13x over.

The elephant in the room is not the perhaps £350,000 Nominet has spent on .wales/.cymru, but the £5,000,000 (and that's just in ONE year) they've wasted of registrant fees by handing it over to N.T. when it could have been spent on removing transfer costs, lowering renewal fees, etc. etc.

Oh, and Nominet handed another £6,000,000 to the NT in September 2012 so the .wales/.cymru costs are a rounding error on the Nominet surplus http://www.nominet.org.uk/news/latest/£6m-donation-nominet-trust-and-september-communiqué

One could also argue that because Nominet has a very successful record of making huge surpluses (putting whether they should or shouldn't aside, they DO) their statement that they would use the extra from .wales/.cymru for good stuff in wales is in fact both believable and highly credible.