The new Real Time DAC

[grantw]

Cheers just realised the current ones are still up.

The addition of actual number limits in 5.2.1 and 5.3.6 seem to be aimed directly at list builders (ie dropcatchers). Very worrying but hardly surprising as everything Nominet does seems to hit this section of the membership the hardest!

Grant

 

[GreyWing]

Maybe there is a clause somewhere...

8.9.3 Thou shall not pay yourself over £300,000 a year from a non profit organisation whilst putting others out of business.

 

[retired_member6]

This also seems odd:

...........you may do the following...................

5.2.1. compile a list of .uk domain names together with their expiry date or other data from the DAC query provided that such list comprises information about less than 1,000 domain names and is not retained by you for a period greater than 90 days and (optionally) use that list for providing services to your existing clients ;

Does anyone have a cache of the old terms?

Grant

Just give data to gf for a day and then take it back for another 90 days.

 

[grantw]

The 90 days isn't the issue, as I read it you can only hold a list of 1000 domains at any time and if you are a droplist supplier you are only allowed to distribute 100 domains from that list in 24 hours?

Grant

 

[bb99]

if you are a droplist supplier you are only allowed to distribute 100 domains from that list in 24 hours?

That's how I read it yes.

smalldroplists.co.uk is free to register

 

[grantw]

If I'm reading the 1000 limit part correctly that would mean that noone will officially have the ability to even create droplists in the first place. Even if you were just scanning the following days drops you would still need a master list with renewal dates to know which domains to scan and a master list would be against the new terms!

Grant

 

[retired_member6]

I may just give up on this business, why be a member when they treat you like s***.

Free trade barred at communist nominet eh? The labour party spreads.

Someone should stand outside nominet with a placard

"are you a communist? because your boss is!!"

Oh dear, just checked, section 5, clause b, paragraph ii: calling us communists will see you doomed to hell and with a lookup of one.

The only part of the economy boming and they're trying to stifle it, Gordon Brown loves you Nominet.

 

[grantw]

"Come out and bring the illegally held domain data with you"

 

[bb99]

If I'm reading the 1000 limit part correctly that would mean that noone will officially have the ability to even create droplists in the first place. Even if you were just scanning the following days drops you would still need a master list with renewal dates to know which domains to scan and a master list would be against the new terms!

Indeed - although how can you effectively police something like that?

What if you're a "memory man" and you remember thousands of domains and expiry dates in your head?

 

[retired_member6]

If I'm reading the 1000 limit part correctly that would mean that noone will officially have the ability to even create droplists in the first place. Even if you were just scanning the following days drops you would still need a master list with renewal dates to know which domains to scan and a master list would be against the new terms!

Grant

They're trying to be like the football fixtures database, claim that the list is theirs to hog, it isn't. You can take a percentage of any data in the world and use it how you like, they're a bunch of solicitors, they should know that so what they're asking is impossible and would never stand up in court. So with that out of the way and being all legal, is it look ups that are the problem now?

 

[grantw]

Indeed - although how can you effectively police something like that?

Agreed, it may lead to Nom closely monitoring what's being queried. One person scanning xxx,xxx individual domains a day for a few weeks may lead to questions/investigations. Or maybe I'm going all conspiracy theory!

Whether it's effective or not it still seems to be a very serious attempt at shutting dropcatchers down.

Grant

 

[retired_member6]

Agreed, it may lead to Nom closely monitoring what's being queried. One person scanning xxx,xxx individual domains a day for a few weeks may lead to questions/investigations. Or maybe I'm going all conspiracy theory!

Whether it's effective or not it still seems to be a very serious attempt at shutting dropcatchers down.

Grant

As they run services on behalf of the government, isn't there a legal route, free trade etc?

I'm fed up of communists, I came to eastern europe to get away from them and enjoy democracy, these people must be stopped. Next they will be only accepting registrations from people with £10,000 or rights to them.

 

[rob]

Its a tricky one as per:

5.1. The data returned from a DAC query is sourced from the register in which we have the intellectual property rights.


It is hard for Nominet to protect the zone if they allow tools to mine it.

You are able to :

5.2.1. compile a list of .uk domain names together with their expiry date or other data from the DAC query provided that such list comprises information about less than 1,000 domain names and is not retained by you for a period greater than 90 days and (optionally) use that list for providing services to your existing clients

Im reading this all as abit of a fudge, with Nom stuck between a rock and hard place.

How would people suggest balancing the issues with protecting the IP rights in the zone / data but allow people to create drop lists?

Either way in the context of domaintools et al still caching data for years its a crazy one to tighten up direct customers and members first.

 

[retired_member6]

Its a tricky one as per:

5.1. The data returned from a DAC query is sourced from the register in which we have the intellectual property rights.


It is hard for Nominet to protect the zone if they allow tools to mine it.

You are able to :

5.2.1. compile a list of .uk domain names together with their expiry date or other data from the DAC query provided that such list comprises information about less than 1,000 domain names and is not retained by you for a period greater than 90 days and (optionally) use that list for providing services to your existing clients

Im reading this all as abit of a fudge, with Nom stuck between a rock and hard place.

How would people suggest balancing the issues with protecting the IP rights in the zone / data but allow people to create drop lists?

Either way in the context of domaintools et al still caching data for years its a crazy one to tighten up direct customers and members first.

Operational data should still be allowed though, the only data that nominet need to protect is that of the registrant, why are dates so important to them, they allow for domains to be renewed or caught or re-registered and keep their profits healthy for their non profit company.

Someone hasn't got any brains, they're shutting it all down but only need to remove registrant details, why not move registrant details to dac b and remove from dac a or do something, why are dates so sensitive, the romans and us have been using them for years. What are they trying to protect, if it it's registrant details then they're going over the top.

 

[rob]

Operational data should still be allowed though, the only data that nominet need to protect is that of the registrant, why are dates so important to them, they allow for domains to be renewed or caught or re-registered and keep their profits healthy for their non profit company.

Operation data is different from databases that are compiled by third parties and sold.

Someone hasn't got any brains, they're shutting it all down but only need to remove registrant details, why not move registrant details to dac b and remove from dac a or do something, why are dates so sensitive, the romans and us have been using them for years. What are they trying to protect, if it it's registrant details then they're going over the top.

I know what you mean, likewise the 1000 / 100 does seem a very arbitary figure which sort-of-makes-sense so far as less than 100 names worth catching drop per day

However, the chicken and egg comes in as without the larger ability its hard to know which names will be going!

Likewise for people with over 1000 domains... would you be breaking the t&c's doing a big scan and storing your records

 

[retired_member6]

Operation data is different from databases that are compiled by third parties and sold.



I know what you mean, likewise the 1000 / 100 does seem a very arbitary figure which sort-of-makes-sense so far as less than 100 names worth catching drop per day

However, the chicken and egg comes in as without the larger ability its hard to know which names will be going!

Likewise for people with over 1000 domains... would you be breaking the t&c's doing a big scan and storing your records

There you go then, nominet can be told that's unworkable as registrars with large amount of customers need to store more data, that's your job aint it? to pull the board up on these things?

As for operational data, all operational data comes from a database and it would stand up in court that what we use is deemed as fair use and vital to operations on both sides therefore nominet shouldn't be even including it, are they failed solicitors? that's why they're trying to run nominet instead.

 

[rob]

There you go then, nominet can be told that's unworkable as registrars with large amount of customers need to store more data, that's your job aint it? to pull the board up on these things?

The PAB discusses and creates policy which is put forward to the board. The board does what it wants with that, but hopefully it takes it er, on board so to speak

The PAB has a policy on this, it was discussed and formed in 2007 - before my time - so I dont know what the full discussions were. http://www.nic.uk/digitalAssets/28809_PAB52minutes_Sept_07.pdf has information on the minutes from that meeting / who was there / what was discussed etc etc.

Once the policy is in place and agreed its up to Nominet to execute what they do inside it, its a tricky one if this is a policy issue or not.

Oddly enough it could be observed that the current terms changes, which on the face of it are quite stringent, are in reaction to previous issues they have faced when trying to enforce their contracts. Being too clever and exploiting loopholes will see those things tightened up - perhaps the wrong battles have been picked by some and now the results are being seen?

As for operational data, all operational data comes from a database and it would stand up in court that what we use is deemed as fair use and vital to operations on both sides therefore nominet shouldn't be even including it, are they failed solicitors? that's why they're trying to run nominet instead.

Again its a tricky one - as to catch names you need to know whats dropping, and to know whats dropping you need to scan big lists! However to scan big lists you need to create them and keep them up to date.

Is holding information on several million domains fair use of the Nom database? Likewise if they go after the likes of aboutus.org / domaintools.com who seem to cache .uk data, would that stand up if they turn a blind eye to other stuff? I dont know the answer as I am not a solicitor, let alone a failed one

 

[bb99]

I dont know the answer as I am not a solicitor, let alone a failed one

It does seem odd that the likes of those websites you mention appear to be storing/reproducing WHOIS data and have been doing so for some time.

 

[GreyWing]

What is happening is that they know everyone will cross this line, and if you stand up to them they will shut you and your account down.

Another way to control members, but people have to stop being so laid back with Nominet. We only have orusleves to blame for not standing together.

How many contacted Andrew and supported his call for an AGM and a vote of no confidence in the Chairman of Nominet and him pocketing XXX,XXX in the LTIP scheme?

Well next time your threaten to vote against Nom, they can now remove your membership because they now know you will have breached this rule.

Sorry fella's but it has to be said,

 

[newbie]

Our public catching, DAC hosting and drop lists will continue as normal.

I was just about to send you an email, PHEW!!!