Nominet announces programme for evolving the .uk domain name space

[markb]

Having a moan about it is fine... but lets at least keep to facts. Nothing is being 'stolen'.

It was an investment that now hasn't turned out quite how he'd have liked. Its happened to me lots of times. Sometimes through stupidity, somethings through bad planning, sometimes through sheer bad luck or timing (like this one).

The other people crying for compensation to be dished out are living in cloud cuckoo land too... you can't really expect for someone to be allowed to make a fortune in domain/website investments over so many years, get a single investment go bad and then a 3rd party to bail them out of their losses.

OK, maybe its not being stolen, I used the incorrect words, when i should have said that I currently own the premium uk commercial food domain which is currently under development, and now I stand to potentially lose the new premium uk commercial food domain name, if this goes ahead and .co.uk domains are relegated to the second division in the eyes of the uk public. It wouldn't be a problem if no-one would get a .uk domain, but for everyone to get the .uk domains means its highly likely that they will become the more desired extension eventually.

 

[Retired_Member38]

OK, maybe its not being stolen, I used the incorrect words, when i should have said that I currently own the premium uk commercial food domain which is currently under development, and now I stand to potentially lose the new premium uk commercial food domain name, if this goes ahead and .co.uk domains are relegated to the second division in the eyes of the uk public. It wouldn't be a problem if no-one would get a .uk domain, but for everyone to get the .uk domains means its highly likely that they will become the more desired extension eventually.

So assuming it goes ahead under its current guise and food.uk is being given to the gov.uk site, what would you realistically like to see done about this from your angle?

 

[Stephen]

94%

People never paid for the .co.uk though mate, the letters mean nothing to anyone. What they paid for the prime UK business extension, the front row seat to the UK public.

I know a lot are trying to ignore that but it is what it is and I think we all know it deep down.

That's why 94% of .uk new strings (best guess), will have .co.uk at the front of the queue as the oldest registrant,
as Nominet finally realized the .co.uk is important.

Whether they take it up is another question?
and the consequences long term when we have different owners of .uk and .co.uk and the potential problems that may arise from that situation.

 

[foz]

OK, maybe its not being stolen, I used the incorrect words, when i should have said that I currently own the premium uk commercial food domain which is currently under development, and now I stand to potentially lose the new premium uk commercial food domain name, if this goes ahead and .co.uk domains are relegated to the second division in the eyes of the uk public. It wouldn't be a problem if no-one would get a .uk domain, but for everyone to get the .uk domains means its highly likely that they will become the more desired extension eventually.

How is your proposed situation any different than an older .org.uk getting first dibs over one of my newer .co.uk domains? Truly sucks doesn't it.

For Nominet to admit potential confusion between .gov.uk and .uk, how the hell do they think .co.uk and .uk will fair? What a shambles.

 

[markb]

So assuming it goes ahead under its current guise and food.uk is being given to the gov.uk site, what would you realistically like to see done about this from your angle?

In the situation you mention there is nothing that can be done, I'm posting on here purely to show to nominet that I don't want this to go ahead and I want them to find alternative domains for these existing .gov.uk websites. I even posted examples of ones they could use. I am not interested in compensation, If the .uk domains go ahead, I want the opportunity to purchase the .uk version of my domain, the same as everyone else.

Lets say everyone got their .uk domains and they give your monkey-uk version to london zoo, you obviously wouldnt be happy about this, the same as I am. What would you want to happen?

 

[markb]

How is your proposed situation any different than an older .org.uk getting first dibs over one of my newer .co.uk domains? Truly sucks doesn't it.

For Nominet to admit potential confusion between .gov.uk and .uk, how the hell do they think .co.uk and .uk will fair? What a shambles.

Foz, this will also happen to me, I own a .co.uk website where the .org.uk version is older, the .co.uk was dropped years ago and I bought it off someone who caught it.

I actully think the .org.uk owner getting the .uk version is worse than my other situation. At least the food standards agency wouldnt either hold me to randsom to buy the .uk domain from them or sell it someone else who would then create a commercial website on it.

 

[Stephen]

elegant solution?

I would suggest that if the food standards agency has to go to a non gov.uk domain, they should have to register or buy their own .co.uk or org.uk domain, the same that anyone would have to do. Not steal someone else's domain.

Alternatively nominet should arrange a new domain for them on a new extension or even the .org.uk extension which is suitable for them as an organisation, i.e. the domain foodstandardsagency-org-uk would be totally acceptable and wouldnt cause any problems.

After a bit more digging about "food standards agency" and looking at their history, website and branding.

There is an elegant solution:

fsa.org.uk registered before 1996 (oldest)
is owned by The Financial Services Authority (A UK Statutory Body)
and it is no longer needs fsa.org.uk as it no longer exists
use that domain to acquire fsa.uk
gift fsa.uk to the "food standards agency" as in their website menu is their preferred short title
and the precedent for organizations to use acronyms is high!

problem solved, take food.uk off the reserved list.

who do I send my bill to?

 

[GreyWing]

For Nominet to admit potential confusion between .gov.uk and .uk, how the hell do they think .co.uk and .uk will fair? What a shambles.

I have no idea who is advising them legally but it is a shambles and will look terrible in court. Consultations that are considered spam to email users about about but not spam to inform the same people by email that there is a new product at twice the price and b) .gov.uk 's are confusing but .co.uk and .uk is not.

Good luck defending that stuff in court against someone like a big brand that has spent millions on building it.

 

[markb]

After a bit more digging about "food standards agency" and looking at their history, website and branding.

There is an elegant solution:

fsa.org.uk registered before 1996 (oldest)
is owned by The Financial Services Authority (A UK Statutory Body)
and it is no longer needs fsa.org.uk as it no longer exists
use that domain to acquire fsa.uk
gift fsa.uk to the "food standards agency" as in their website menu is their preferred short title
and the precedent for organizations to use acronyms is high!

problem solved, take food.uk off the reserved list.

who do I send my bill to?

Hi Stephen, thanks for looking in to this, this indeed would be a good solution in this case, but would nominet be interested, and how would I raise this with the correct people?

Mark, your post highlights the biggest threat to getting this stopped which is that if we're not careful, we'll get dragged into arguing the detail. This is a straight yes or no situation, you either want direct.uk or you don't.

I wasn't too bothered about .uk until I found out that they wanted to reserve the food-uk domain.

 

[foz]

I have no idea who is advising them legally but it is a shambles and will look terrible in court. Consultations that are considered spam to email users about about but not spam to inform the same people by email that there is a new product at twice the price and b) .gov.uk 's are confusing but .co.uk and .uk is not.

Good luck defending that stuff in court against someone like a big brand that has spent millions on building it.

Right on.

Consultation = Spam
New product please buy = Not spam.

Laughable. I bet most Registrants in the space would be very keen to know what is being proposed. Nominet either know its not going to happen and don't want to spook the public or Nominet wish to sneak it under the radar.

 

[Stephen]

real figures

Stephen, don't make the same mistake as Edwin and quote percentages. 6% equals approximately 600,000 domains and no one knows what the financial implications are to the registrants of those names.

Thanks for pointed out the number. I have requested Nominet to supply the real figures so we can get a potential feel,
for the best case scenario of different ownership by first tld in the queue.

 

[Stephen]

sell it?

Foz, this will also happen to me, I own a .co.uk website where the .org.uk version is older, the .co.uk was dropped years ago and I bought it off someone who caught it.

I actully think the .org.uk owner getting the .uk version is worse than my other situation. At least the food standards agency wouldnt either hold me to randsom to buy the .uk domain from them or sell it someone else who would then create a commercial website on it.

I think if the "food standards agency" was gifted the domain,
it would be difficult for them to sell it,
they would get more bad publicity than taking it in the first place.

In the remote possibility they did want to sell it,
as a government type agency they would not just offer it to you out of some sense of justice,
they would have to put it to auction of some sort to show transparency.

 

[Retired_Member38]

I think if the "food standards agency" was gifted the domain,
it would be difficult for them to sell it,
they would get more bad publicity than taking it in the first place.

In the remote possibility they did want to sell it,
as a government type agency they would not just offer it to you out of some sense of justice,
they would have to put it to auction of some sort to show transparency.

I would have assumed you would be better off to lose a domain to another extension which predated you, than to have it gifted to a gov.uk equivalent. There is absolutely no way the government can sell it, as if they do then it was a clear admission that they didn't actually need that specific domain in the first place. Perhaps the only way that would ever happen was if the agency in question closed down. And even then I can't see them selling it - the risk is someone at some point in the future pretends to be that organisation which used to reside on the domain.

At least if you lose it to another domainer, you can buy it. If they refuse to deal, you're not in a worse position than you would have been had the gov took it - you still have one half of a pair.

 

[foz]

The UK Government hasn't even asked for these reserved .uk domains. How dumb is that of Nominet.

 

[Stephen]

free publicity?

I would have assumed you would be better off to lose a domain to another extension which predated you, than to have it gifted to a gov.uk equivalent. There is absolutely no way the government can sell it, as if they do then it was a clear admission that they didn't actually need that specific domain in the first place. Perhaps the only way that would ever happen was if the agency in question closed down. And even then I can't see them selling it - the risk is someone at some point in the future pretends to be that organisation which used to reside on the domain.

At least if you lose it to another domainer, you can buy it. If they refuse to deal, you're not in a worse position than you would have been had the gov took it - you still have one half of a pair.

The new owner might not sell at a sensible price, you know what some of these domainers are like!

A twist would be as an advantage to having it one of 10 domains (already registered) taken by the government.
you would get some quality links through the media to your website and get a lot of free publicity,
if you wanted to tap into it and know how?

I'd get the .co.uk website up as soon as I could.

 

[markb]

Mark, sorry but I think you have the least chance of anyone of getting this part of their proposals changed. Should we give it to a developer/domainer or a government department is a question with only one outcome.

I would class myself as a Business/Developer, i've never actually sold a domain name, and have only purchased domains for development.

The real question is, Should the government give .uk domains to uk businesses or government departments and local authorities? They shouldnt pick and choose, they should either give it to the oldest registrant first and stick to this, or they offer all .uk domains to government departments and local authorities first (.gov.uk extensions), and if they don't want them, then offer them to the oldest registrant.

In nominets latest consultation document they mentioned the reserving of names for authorities "Some stakeholders indicated that they would expect public authorities to be afforded “higher” reservation rights in order to reduce the likelihood of this type of confusion. In addition there was not insignificant support for restricting sensitive names as designated by Companies House."

I suspect that if they get the go ahead to reserve the current names that they have, they will expand upon this greatly before the actual launch of .uk. When other government departments and local authorities hear that certain .uk domains have been reserved for others, then other departments will want the same for their domains.

Nominet did mention the possibility that the reserved names maybe lifted individually with the authority from the new .gov.uk registrant, they said " We would also propose that the restriction could be lifted with the authority from the .gov.uk registrant.". I very much doubt though if I was to write to the food standards agency, they would hand the domain over to me with no problems. This wouldn't happen in a million years. I could however see that if the independent news company leaned on nominet, they would probably make one exception for them.

 

[foz]

The new owner might not sell at a sensible price, you know what some of these domainers are like!

And what's sensible these days? An offer that only buys a decent bottle of whiskey or Monkeys through away £20K domains.

 

[foz]

I would class myself as a Business/Developer, i've never actually sold a domain name, and have only purchased domains for development.

The real question is, Should the government give .uk domains to uk businesses or government departments and local authorities? They shouldnt pick and choose, they should either give it to the oldest registrant first and stick to this, or they offer all .uk domains to government departments and local authorities first (.gov.uk extensions), and if they don't want them, then offer them to the oldest registrant.

In nominets latest consultation document they mentioned the reserving of names for authorities "Some stakeholders indicated that they would expect public authorities to be afforded “higher” reservation rights in order to reduce the likelihood of this type of confusion. In addition there was not insignificant support for restricting sensitive names as designated by Companies House."

I suspect that if they get the go ahead to reserve the current names that they have, they will expand upon this greatly before the actual launch of .uk. When other government departments and local authorities hear that certain .uk domains have been reserved for others, then other departments will want the same for their domains.

Nominet did mention the possibility that the reserved names maybe lifted individually with the authority from the new .gov.uk registrant, they said " We would also propose that the restriction could be lifted with the authority from the .gov.uk registrant.". I very much doubt though if I was to write to the food standards agency, they would hand the domain over to me with no problems. This wouldn't happen in a million years. I could however see that if the independent news company leaned on nominet, they would probably make one exception for them.

If the exceptions keep piling up, then it's obvious .uk shouldn't proceed.

 

[markb]

And what's sensible these days? An offer that only buys a decent bottle of whiskey or Monkeys through away £20K domains.

I heard Monkey only pays peanuts for his domains

 

[GreyWing]

And what's sensible these days? An offer that only buys a decent bottle of whiskey or Monkeys through away £20K domains.

All a domainer needs to do is type in the equivalent .co.uk name before they give a price and know how big the lottery ticket it. Not going to be pretty lol.