Nominet announces programme for evolving the .uk domain name space

Stephen · Jul 2, 2013

would it be right?

Monkey said:
Its bizarre to go from someone not being given a .uk domain in the first place, to the idea that they might give out .uk domains to people and then steal them off them in the future.

Its ridiculous to even suggest it... never in a million years is that going to happen.

Agree it is highly unlikely they will not do more for changes in .gov.uk as that has already happened and the departments effected are all known.

However Nominet would have set a precedent and there may a change in web structure, trend or security that Nominet believes it to be in the public interest to have that specific .uk.

As long as the reason is justified and the owners are compensated, I think it would be the right thing to do in principle, as long as it was not abused and was limited and last resort action.

Edwin · Jul 2, 2013

Stephen said:
However Nominet would have set a precedent and there may a change in web structure, trend or security that Nominet believes it to be in the public interest to have that specific .uk.

As long as the reason is justified and the owners are compensated, I think it would be the right thing to do in principle, as long as it was not abused and was limited and last resort action.

I guess what you're talking about falls under eminent domain or compulsory purchase law. AFAIK you would have to BE the government (local or national) to do something like that - private firms don't get to play in that pond.

And I can't imagine any government would want the negative press for such a tiny gain.

Stephen · Jul 2, 2013

Questions to Nominet

Now the details, as far as it goes are here from Nominet on V2.0 .uk and people have slept on it.

What questions would you like to see Nominet answer, which would clarify the situation for you.

Here are some to get started with:

what are the benefits of .uk?
why not use alternative solutions such as opening up .net.uk to increase availability of new Uk domains?
will there be a cut off date?
what about the artificial earlier registration of .me.uk at the recent 2 letter Nominet auctions?
what will be done about confusion between .uk and .co.uk?
what will be done about security issues that arise between .uk and .co.uk being different owners?
what will the new advert for "a great place to be" look like showing .uk as a choice?
why not email all registrants about the consultation advising them of how there domain currently stands as to whether they would obtain the equivalent .uk? (this would act as a good try run and .uk is important)
why not operate an opt out of your rights to the .uk rather than an opt in?
why did Nominet not start a proper debate on the future of the UK namespace, rather than use a limited viewpoint for .uk consultation as the basis for moving forward?
why 6 months and not a year as a grace period?
will compensation be paid to those domain holders that will not get the .uk equivalent due to government bodies been given them?
how many emails do Nominet intend to send to each registrant?
will emails be sent to each registrant with a list of there domain or a separate email for each domain owned?
which email address held will be used?
will any domains apart from .com.uk be held back for potential use of a new 3rd level UK domain by Nominet in the future?
the new charge for .uk is stated as covering costs, can Nominet provide the figures to support this?
if the email bounces will Nominet write to the domain owner or call them on the phone?
what is the budget for the .uk awareness campaign?
will Nominet be holding meet Nominet round table meetings as they did with .uk Version 1, consultation?.

Please add more "Questions to Nominet about .uk".

Edwin · Jul 2, 2013

Stephen said:
will Nominet be holding meet Nominet round table meetings as they did with .uk Version 1, consultation?.

They've already announced the round table dates. See the bottom of
http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-parti...ussions-and-consultations/registration-second

Here's a question...
Will address verification requirement be capped per unique legal entity? In other words, if 10,000 domains are owned by the same entity, is verification process required 1x or 10,000x?

markb · Jul 2, 2013

Stephen said:
Agree it is highly unlikely they will not do more for changes in .gov.uk as that has already happened and the departments effected are all known.

However Nominet would have set a precedent and there may a change in web structure, trend or security that Nominet believes it to be in the public interest to have that specific .uk.

As long as the reason is justified and the owners are compensated, I think it would be the right thing to do in principle, as long as it was not abused and was limited and last resort action.

I think nominet should consider creating another extension which cold be used for the domains migrating from .gov, Ie. gov2.uk or some better name, as once they have released all the .uk names there's no going back. Why should a handful of government departments get the opportunity to grab their .uk domains off the deserving owners, when no other departments will get the chance?

I think I will discuss my issue with the editors of the independent newspaper, as they are in the same position as myself, and see if we can get a story out about this in the press.

Stephen · Jul 2, 2013

all qualifying UK tld's strings?

markb said:
I think nominet should consider creating another extension which cold be used for the domains migrating from .gov, Ie. gov2.uk or some better name, as once they have released all the .uk names there's no going back. Why should a handful of government departments get the opportunity to grab their .uk domains off the deserving owners, when no other departments will get the chance?

I think I will discuss my issue with the editors of the independent newspaper, as they are in the same position as myself, and see if we can get a story out about this in the press.

Good luck.

Originally I thought, if it went ahead and no alternative solutions found,
only the "oldest equivalent UK domain" would be entitled to compensation.

However on reflection, all qualifying UK tld's strings should get some form of compensation as the oldest may not have taken up their rights to the .uk.

Also I think if Nominet don't address the issue, it would not reflect well on them that they could effectively steal rights they have provided to owners of 10,000,000 UK domains.

What sort of standards and ethics are Nominet promoting in the UK domain industry?

domainseller200 · Jul 2, 2013

I think Julian is right also. The sooner .uk is released the better, as it will only be put on the shelf again and rear its head again in the future anyway. It will never go away no matter how much we fight it, and it isn't a case of 'not giving up', it is more the case of the inevitable taking too long to have happened in the first place.

I stand to lose quite a few of my names to the 'oldest registrant first' rule, but I also gain some nice ones too using the same rules.

I am also seeing this as an opportunity to possibly get some nice .uk names which I would never have the opportunity otherwise.

Don't forget that just because it is the oldest registrant registrant who gets first refusal, doesn't mean they will actually go for the name. How many times have we received spam emails from companies (usually in China) saying that someone else is trying to secure a .sx domain of our 'brand' name in the hope that we will buy it instead ?

There will be 10,000's who don't buy the .uk name as either a. they don't want it, b. they don't see the importance or understand it or c. they think it is another one of those spam emails

So changes = opportunites. I am going to make sure that I go for every single one of my generic top names, even if I am not the oldest registrant as I think there is a good chance I will get quite a few of them.

Nigel · Jul 2, 2013

markb said:
I think nominet should consider creating another extension which cold be used for the domains migrating from .gov, Ie. gov2.uk or some better name, as once they have released all the .uk names there's no going back. Why should a handful of government departments get the opportunity to grab their .uk domains off the deserving owners, when no other departments will get the chance?

I think I will discuss my issue with the editors of the independent newspaper, as they are in the same position as myself, and see if we can get a story out about this in the press.

Good idea - isn't it amazing how they go out of their way to come up with this grossly unfair solution for their friends in government - yet no mention of what to do with the short domain auction winners who paid over £3m to nominet less than two years ago.

Edwin · Jul 2, 2013

Nigel said:
Good idea - isn't it amazing how they go out of their way to come up with this grossly unfair solution for their friends in government - yet no mention of what to do with the short domain auction winners who paid over £3m to nominet less than two years ago.

Not strictly true. They are explicitly mentioned in question 3b:

3.b Are there any categories of domain names already currently registered which should be released differently, e.g. domains registered on the same day, pre-Nominet domains (where the first registration date may not be identified with certainty) and domains released in the 2011 short domains project?

Of course, that's only the feedback gathering stage, but it shows that Nominet hasn't forgotten/ignored the issue entirely.

Nigel · Jul 2, 2013

Edwin said:
Not strictly true. They are explicitly mentioned in question 3b:

Of course, that's only the feedback gathering stage, but it shows that Nominet hasn't forgotten/ignored the issue entirely.

thanks Edwin - I hadn't seen that.

Edwin · Jul 2, 2013

BTW, it's vital to read BOTH consultation documents thoroughly - the consultation itself, AND the "background documents" PDF that accompanies it. When both are considered in tandem, some of the things that look like open questions may well turn out not to be.

CONSULTATION: http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/ConsultationOnSecondLevelDomainRegistrationInUK_0.pdf

BACKGROUND DOCS: http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/def...egistrationInUKBackgroundAndFurtherDetail.pdf

Nigel · Jul 2, 2013

Anyway - coming back to MarkB's predicament and that of the Independent newspaper it seems to me that full compensation should be paid if they are denied the opportunity of purchasing the .uk.

As MarkB said it wouldn't be hard to find another extension for these ex .gov.uk domains to migrate to. Nominet might even have to put their hands in their pockets and buy a suitable .co.uk in the secondary market (i.e. instead of stealing the rights off another existing registrant).

Edwin · Jul 2, 2013

The affected government websites already have a measure of protection:

Those organisations whose websites are exempt will continue to have a presence on GOV.UK, providing high-level content about the role of their organisationand a link to their website.

http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/2012/12/11/exemptions/

Therefore I'm not entirely sure why Nominet needs to give them special treatment, but maybe there was a closed doors meeting of some kind that suggested it would be a good idea? Either that, or it's an issue that was raised during the V1 response (since we don't get to see individual submissions, we won't know for sure - but it is certainly true that Nominet received a number of responses from government)

Stephen · Jul 2, 2013

Buy it?

Nigel said:
Anyway - coming back to MarkB's predicament and that of the Independent newspaper it seems to me that full compensation should be paid if they are denied the opportunity of purchasing the .uk.

As MarkB said it wouldn't be hard to find another extension for these ex .gov.uk domains to migrate to. Nominet might even have to put their hands in their pockets and buy a suitable .co.uk in the secondary market (i.e. instead of stealing the rights off another existing registrant).

Maybe Nominet should take there own advice point 10.

http://www.agreatplacetobe.co.uk/get-started/whats-in-a-name

If your first choice is already taken

You can use the WHOIS search tool to check the availability of all .uk domain names If someone has already registered the name you want, they might be willing to sell it to you. The WHOIS tool is located on the Nominet website.

markb · Jul 2, 2013

I would suggest that if the food standards agency has to go to a non gov.uk domain, they should have to register or buy their own .co.uk or org.uk domain, the same that anyone would have to do. Not steal someone else's domain.

Alternatively nominet should arrange a new domain for them on a new extension or even the .org.uk extension which is suitable for them as an organisation, i.e. the domain foodstandardsagency-org-uk would be totally acceptable and wouldnt cause any problems.

Retired_Member38 · Jul 2, 2013

markb said:
I would suggest that if the food standards agency has to go to a non gov.uk domain, they should have to register or buy their own .co.uk or org.uk domain, the same that anyone would have to do. Not steal someone else's domain.

Alternatively nominet should arrange a new domain for them on a new extension or even the .org.uk extension which is suitable for them as an organisation, i.e. the domain foodstandardsagency-org-uk would be totally acceptable and wouldnt cause any problems.

Mark, its bizarre to say they shouldn't steal someone else's domain. This would be a fair point if you were being kicked off food.co.uk. They're going to take food.uk.... a domain that has never been yours.

Its obviously sickening to be one of only two people to lose the option of purchasing a new .uk generic domain under this exception... but the domain was never 'yours'. You've bought a good domain as an investment, got horrendously unlucky with a development nobody could have foreseen, but still own what you bought originally.

GreyWing · Jul 2, 2013

Monkey said:
Mark, its bizarre to say they shouldn't steal someone else's domain. This would be a fair point if you were being kicked off food.co.uk. They're going to take food.uk.... a domain that has never been yours.

Its obviously sickening to be one of only two people to lose the option of purchasing a new .uk generic domain under this exception... but the domain was never 'yours'. You've bought a good domain as an investment, got horrendously unlucky with a development nobody could have foreseen, but still own what you bought originally.

People never paid for the .co.uk though mate, the letters mean nothing to anyone. What they paid for the prime UK business extension, the front row seat to the UK public.

I know a lot are trying to ignore that but it is what it is and I think we all know it deep down.

Brassneck · Jul 2, 2013

domainseller200 said:
I think Julian is right also. The sooner .uk is released the better, as it will only be put on the shelf again and rear its head again in the future anyway. It will never go away no matter how much we fight it, and it isn't a case of 'not giving up', it is more the case of the inevitable taking too long to have happened in the first place.

I stand to lose quite a few of my names to the 'oldest registrant first' rule, but I also gain some nice ones too using the same rules.

I am also seeing this as an opportunity to possibly get some nice .uk names which I would never have the opportunity otherwise.

Don't forget that just because it is the oldest registrant registrant who gets first refusal, doesn't mean they will actually go for the name. How many times have we received spam emails from companies (usually in China) saying that someone else is trying to secure a .sx domain of our 'brand' name in the hope that we will buy it instead ?

There will be 10,000's who don't buy the .uk name as either a. they don't want it, b. they don't see the importance or understand it or c. they think it is another one of those spam emails

So changes = opportunites. I am going to make sure that I go for every single one of my generic top names, even if I am not the oldest registrant as I think there is a good chance I will get quite a few of them.

Agree with these sentiments....

Retired_Member38 · Jul 2, 2013

Sean said:
So what should he do?

Shut up and stop moaning?

Having a moan about it is fine... but lets at least keep to facts. Nothing is being 'stolen'.

It was an investment that now hasn't turned out quite how he'd have liked. Its happened to me lots of times. Sometimes through stupidity, somethings through bad planning, sometimes through sheer bad luck or timing (like this one).

The other people crying for compensation to be dished out are living in cloud cuckoo land too... you can't really expect for someone to be allowed to make a fortune in domain/website investments over so many years, get a single investment go bad and then a 3rd party to bail them out of their losses.

Stephen · Jul 2, 2013

FTR and expectations

markb said:
I would suggest that if the food standards agency has to go to a non gov.uk domain, they should have to register or buy their own .co.uk or org.uk domain, the same that anyone would have to do. Not steal someone else's domain.

Alternatively nominet should arrange a new domain for them on a new extension or even the .org.uk extension which is suitable for them as an organisation, i.e. the domain foodstandardsagency-org-uk would be totally acceptable and wouldnt cause any problems.

I don't think there is enough of a case for another 3rd level like .ac.uk for those few organizations being kicked out of .gov.uk.

foodstandardsagency.org.uk is FTR, I wish Nominet would just register all these as a plan B before somebody else does!

They should also look at a case by case basis of each name to see what is best for the consumer,
would the usual UK internet user expect the "Food Standards Agency" :

use the a different BRAND rather than "Food Standards Agency" ?
to own such an obviously premium commercially desirable domain as Food.uk?
they use email [email protected] why don't they use [email protected]?
expect them to have the ethics of just taking a .uk domain they have no rights to?