Nominet announces programme for evolving the .uk domain name space

[domainseller200]

Sorry Frank that's a crazy statement. I don't see how you come to that. The argument I have always said is that regardless of the release mechanism except to pair. Innocent members of the public won't take up their .uk (regardless of the ad campaign and will be cybersquatted on before realising what has happened in about 4-5 years as they head to domainers to buy them back.

It might be crazy, but it is also true. I am talking about those arguing the release process whilst looking after their own stables and agendas. You might think it is crazy, but what other reason is there ?

The majority of people disagreeing that they don't think the "oldest registrant first" should apply are those who have caught names which the registrant date is after the .org.uk name and are complaining about it as they won't get automatic rights to the .uk name. Dressing it up as "oh it isn't fair on the innocent companies who will lose out etc etc" are just words being used as a mask to not reveal why they really don't want it to happen.

If I was to speak as an impartial person, your statement is true that lots of innocent members of the public won't take up their .uk name and will be squatted on, but this is irrelevant in the .org.uk / co.uk pecking order argument and wasn't what I was talking about at all.

In business you can't win them all, and using the "but what about the innocent businesses who will lose out on their name" argument whilst having so much to gain personally if it didn't go ahead is just laughable.

This isn't aimed at any person in particular (especially you Graeme) I am just voicing what (in my own impartial opinion) what is REALLY meant when people are saying this.

For those who might think I personally have an agenda by saying this, if I was to talk from a purely selfish point of view I would also MUCH prefer the .uk names to be given to the .co.uk owners as opposed to 'oldest registrant first', as I stand to be much better off personally if that happened.

 

[Murray]

Why would that be a bigger PR nightmare than having tens of thousands of charities/non-profits "lose" the .uk to someone who's holding a more recent domain registration than theirs.

I don't know how many would want the .uk anyway, which is for both arguments.

You can also argue they have already lost out anyway, owning the org.uk and not the premium co.uk.

 

[GreyWing]

It might be crazy, but it is also true. I am talking about those arguing the release process whilst looking after their own stables and agendas. You might think it is crazy, but what other reason is there ?

I'd hope the reason about protecting the public and my previous customers would be one.

If I was to speak as an impartial person, your statement is true that lots of innocent members of the public won't take up their .uk name and will be squatted on, but this is irrelevant in the .org.uk / co.uk pecking order argument and wasn't what I was talking about at all.

Not when the pairing option is there that would solve this.

This isn't aimed at any person in particular (especially you Graeme) I am just voicing what (in my own impartial opinion) what is REALLY meant when people are saying this.

For those who might think I personally have an agenda by saying this, if I was to talk from a purely selfish point of view I would also MUCH prefer the .uk names to be given to the .co.uk owners as opposed to 'oldest registrant first', as I stand to be much better off personally if that happened.

Fair enough on your opinion, no offence taken on this side, too much thick skin for that I personally wouldn't argue for .co.uk to get first option as it still leaves open the cybersquatting issue.

 

[GreyWing]

You can also argue they have already lost out anyway, owning the org.uk and not the premium co.uk.

True mate, I'd also expect most charities on .org.uk to just forward any .uk to .org.uk anyway. They like the .org.uk extension, I know I'd rather have donate.org.uk than .co.uk or .uk

 

[max_rk]

It might be crazy, but it is also true. I am talking about those arguing the release process whilst looking after their own stables and agendas. You might think it is crazy, but what other reason is there ?

The majority of people disagreeing that they don't think the "oldest registrant first" should apply are those who have caught names which the registrant date is after the .org.uk name and are complaining about it as they won't get automatic rights to the .uk name. Dressing it up as "oh it isn't fair on the innocent companies who will lose out etc etc" are just words being used as a mask to not reveal why they really don't want it to happen.

If I was to speak as an impartial person, your statement is true that lots of innocent members of the public won't take up their .uk name and will be squatted on, but this is irrelevant in the .org.uk / co.uk pecking order argument and wasn't what I was talking about at all.

In business you can't win them all, and using the "but what about the innocent businesses who will lose out on their name" argument whilst having so much to gain personally if it didn't go ahead is just laughable.

This isn't aimed at any person in particular (especially you Graeme) I am just voicing what (in my own impartial opinion) what is REALLY meant when people are saying this.

For those who might think I personally have an agenda by saying this, if I was to talk from a purely selfish point of view I would also MUCH prefer the .uk names to be given to the .co.uk owners as opposed to 'oldest registrant first', as I stand to be much better off personally if that happened.

Thanks for clarifying. My tone has not changed. During V1 consultation day if anyone remember I took microphone and said that user confusion if biggest problem, most public do not know what they talking about.

 

[domainseller200]

& a lot of businesses that purchased drop caught domains over the past decade.

I'm currently putting together (an all be it limited) list of premium co.uk's that were registered since 2004 and are currently in the hands of (to the best of my knowledge) non domainers, indicating that they were almost certainly purchased for a fair sum of money from a domainer.

Those companies believed they were getting the premium .uk to represent their business, now suddenly for no clear reason nominet want to introduce direct.uk.. not exactly fair.

Yes and you could argue that domaining as a whole isn't fair either or the fact they had to pay a hugely inflated sum for the domain isn't fair either.

How people can claim certain things to be fair or unfair when they are selling domains to companies for highly inflated figures literally makes me laugh out loud.

Scenario 1 - Man sells domain which he paid £6, to a company that bought it off him for 5 figures

vs

Scenario 2 - Nominet propose a new extension which doesn't automatically give the rights to the .uk domain name, and same man from Scenario 1 claims it is unfair



I am a domainer myself and make good money from selling and leasing domain names to companies, I just don't kid myself what is fair and unfair regardless of my position in the market.

 

[Nigel]

True mate, I'd also expect most charities on .org.uk to just forward any .uk to .org.uk anyway. They like the .org.uk extension, I know I'd rather have donate.org.uk than .co.uk or .uk

I agree with this. A lot of the public are wary of charity fundraising and want to know where their money is going - IMO .org.uk looks far better than .uk

 

[domainseller200]

I'd hope the reason about protecting the public and my previous customers would be one.

I would hope that too, but I am a realist, and I know that isn't the case where most are concerned

 

[Murray]

Yes and you could argue that domaining as a whole isn't fair either or the fact they had to pay a hugely inflated sum for the domain isn't fair either.

It's like anything in life, rarity creates value, not domainers fault there is only one domain of it's kind + no one is ever forcing anyone to buy it from them.

 

[Retired_Member38]

The problem with .org.uk is that it's been taken over to a large extent by domainers and affiliates to build out sites because they were cheap and had very little value to ordinary business. This means that .org.uk is heavily populated by the secondary market and under the current proposals this group will be the biggest benefactors and the media will have a field day.

How many .org.uk domainers and affiliates are realistically going to win here? The number is going to be tiny. Almost all of them are going to be defeated on the registered on date of the .co.uk as the current proposal stands.

 

[domainseller200]

Frank, I agree with much of what you say but what you're not addressing is the fact that domainers have sold many prime .co.uk domains to businesses for money, often a lot of money, so the secondary market has already had their pound of flesh.

The problem with .org.uk is that it's been taken over to a large extent by domainers and affiliates to build out sites because they were cheap and had very little value to ordinary business. This means that .org.uk is heavily populated by the secondary market and under the current proposals this group will be the biggest benefactors and the media will have a field day.

Sean, I have no issues with the people who are saying it for reasons like you highlighted. I do have issues however with people who are dressing up it as that, when really they are protecting their assets (rightly so it could also be argued) but at least be honest.

I just can't help but feel that so many people are disagreeing with points for reasons which aren't for these people at all, and are purely for selfish reasons.

 

[Edwin]

The problem with .org.uk is that it's been taken over to a large extent by domainers and affiliates to build out sites because they were cheap and had very little value to ordinary business. This means that .org.uk is heavily populated by the secondary market and under the current proposals this group will be the biggest benefactors and the media will have a field day.

For the .org.uk to win, it still has to be older than the .co.uk

Why will large numbers of .org.uk domains registered "by domainers and affiliates" be older than the corresponding .co.uk names?

The argument that there will be "some" is a far cry from saying that this particular group will be the "biggest benefactors".

Actually, V1 spreads the benefits across all major registrant constituencies.

.co.uk will end up with the overwhelming majority (90%++) of .uk names. After all, most domains are uncondended (only about 600,000 are not) and as my example of a real world situation showed, for a sample of over 1,000 "actual businesses" no less than 99% got the .uk corresponding to their URL.

.org.uk will get somewhere in the region of 3%-6% of .uk names (an "educated guess"). Most of these will go to those who've owned the extension for a very long time (which tend to be charities/non-profits - not exclusively, but mainly). In my Alexa study which covered real, live sites, just over half of all .org.uk sites would get matching .uk names

.me.uk will probably get under 1%. There are extremely few situations where .me.uk is the oldest of all 3 domains (though I admit they make for eye-catching headlines - they're just not representative)

At the same time, members of each contingent above should perceive the situation as "fair" - the mechanism to determine the "winner" was simple, clear, and logical - and it did not arbitrarily (from their point of view) favour one contingent over another.

 

[getmein]

The release mechanism will have many winners and losers. The registration date issue aside, I suspect we'll also see a large number of registrants who won't take up their rights, only to regret that in the future.

On balance, I see it being a far more successful extension that many of the proposed gTLDs because it will likely start with critical mass, because it forces the remotely savvy operator to buy the corresponding .uk if only to avoid finding themselves in a position where they need to buy the .uk in future in the secondary market and/or prevent confusion.

Have Nominet made any public predictions on what they consider the takeup of .uk would be?

Have they said what the Nominet Trust will spend the additional money on?

 

[domainseller200]

It's like anything in life, rarity creates value, not domainers fault there is only one domain of it's kind + no one is ever forcing anyone to buy it from them.

No it is domainers 'fault' for taking advantage of the situation and using it to their advantage, which is why so many are pissed off with this current proposal as they will be the ones being losing the advantage instead. The fact you have said "one domain of it's kind" atually backs up what I am saying as by releasing .uk makes it less rare and less desirable.

By choosing to quote just part of what I said, I am going to take it that you agree with the rest of it

 

[Sound]

I agree with Frank too many people on this forum want it both ways and that is just not possible.

How many people have in the last six months sold a domain and not told the buyer about the nominet proposal to launch .UK everyone apart from Nigel I expect

The very same people then say they are looking to defend businesses when nominet launch .UK or that it is all so unfair.

Some people need to realise that this is a business and the people on the forum are not your friends they are business people out to get to the top in what they do.

Nominet has finally grown a pair of balls and is looking to stop drop-catching and make life harder for the domainer

 

[GreyWing]

At the same time, members of each contingent above should perceive the situation as "fair" - the mechanism to determine the "winner" was simple, clear, and logical - and it did not arbitrarily (from their point of view) favour one contingent over another.

Domainers will be the winners under your plan, regardless of the release mechanism it's going to be a massacre for the general public. Whatever anyone of us wins and loses on the launch it's going to be messy to watch the next 4-5 years.

 

[Edwin]

Have Nominet made any public predictions on what they consider the takeup of .uk would be?

Have they said what the Nominet Trust will spend the additional money on?

(Just borrowing your questions!)

Have Nominet made any public predictions on what they consider the takeup of .uk would be?

Have they said what the Nominet Trust will spend the additional money on?

I wanted to make that more prominent for when we're paging back through this thread after the full document is released. They're both great questions and deserve to be remembered!

 

[Edwin]

Domainers will be the winners under your plan, regardless of the release mechanism it's going to be a massacre for the general public. Whatever anyone of us wins and loses on the launch it's going to be messy to watch the next 4-5 years.

Domainers stand to win fewer domains under "oldest first" than under either ".co.uk first" or "pairing".

Many people have pointed that out already, not just me!

 

[domainseller200]

Frank, you're heavily invested in .org.uk as well as .co.uk so do you favour scrapping direct.uk or releasing using v2 proposals?

Yes I am invested heavily in .org.uk names, but I am actually heavier invested in .co.uk names from a financial point of view as it stands. If the proposal went ahead in it's current format (oldest registrant first) then I stand to be in a better position with my .co.uk names than my .org.uk names, and would lose out hugely and render some of my .org.uk names as reg fee value, yet I still feel that the earliest date approach is much fairer as a whole. You could even compare it to a war - 2 million people die to save 20 million people.

Regardless of my own feelings, direct.uk will not be scrapped and I think we all know that. I feel V2 proposals are much fairer than V1 (as an overall for everyone NOT personally) especially from the TM angle being scrapped.

 

[domainseller200]

I agree with Frank too many people on this forum want it both ways and that is just not possible.

How many people have in the last six months sold a domain and not told the buyer about the nominet proposal to launch .UK everyone apart from Nigel I expect

The very same people then say they are looking to defend businesses when nominet launch .UK or that it is all so unfair.

Some people need to realise that this is a business and the people on the forum are not your friends they are business people out to get to the top in what they do.

Nominet has finally grown a pair of balls and is looking to stop drop-catching and make life harder for the domainer

Amen.