Nominet announces programme for evolving the .uk domain name space

[Jump]

If I just register the .uk or the co.uk then the very next day someone will register the one I have not got with a view to sell it to me at a future date and will park it listing it for sale, the more successful my site becomes the more the value of the alternative name rises.

How does that benefit the business community or the UK webspace ?

If I am the one that regs the name you refer to, and I sell it to you (or anyone else) for a profit, that is a "benefit", to me - someone who forms part of the "business community" and "UK webspace".

Would you like to tell me what the name is in advance and I reg it and we agree on a fixed price to sell it to you down the track?

 

[websaway]

If I am the one that regs the name you refer to, and I sell it to you (or anyone else) for a profit, that is a "benefit", to me - someone who forms part of the "business community" and "UK webspace".

Would you like to tell me what the name is in advance and I reg it and we agree on a fixed price to sell it to you down the track?

Well at least you didn't sidestep the question.

There are pages and pages of people looking at what happens to the 10,000,000 names already registered, mostly out of self interest, which is to be expected.
Nominet have proposed certain rules to cover the questions that arose for those already registered names, we can address them more subjectively when the whole proposal is released at the end of June.

What has not been addressed on this website in any depth is the effect of .uk on the uk business community and the uk business webspace.

I believe there is a risk that we will be selling tomorrow for today.
( we seen it with the banks )
I do not attack any individual whether they be in government at Nominet or on this website but I do believe in making my point.

 

[Stephen]

enforcement?

.....Nominet has enshrined in writing (baked into the text of the "Rules" governing domain registration) the fact that .org.uk non-commercial usage would not be enforced.....

Edwin could you please provide the section that says Nominet would not enforce a non-commercial usage of .org.uk, I thought Nominet was just silent on the point of enforcement.

 

[Stephen]

new GLD cost v .uk

One of the reasons .co.uk is one of the most registered extension in the world, has been the cost of £2.50 ish p.a. cheap even compared to the almighty .com.

With the new GLD's coming along that price advantage would be even be larger, as many will have to price at £10+

However if V2.0 of the Nominet UK proposal went ahead then overnight the price of a uk domain for business would not have that price advantage as you would need the .co.uk and .uk cost approx. £10 pa which is greater than .com and nearer the new GLD's.

If the dominance of .co.uk is then broken by other tld extensions it could be the architect of its own demise!

 

[Edwin]

[*].uk is the new business extension for a new age

This was true in V1. It looks like Nominet has moved away from that idea in V2. I need to see the final document to be sure (don't we all?) but the language they use in talking about the V2 proposal has definitely become a lot more inclusive.

 

[Edwin]

Edwin could you please provide the section that says Nominet would not enforce a non-commercial usage of .org.uk, I thought Nominet was just silent on the point of enforcement.

I did several pages back, but happy to repeat it (emphasis is mine):

4.4 We do not impose restrictions on your status as applicant for the registration of a Domain Name in the following SLDs ("Open SLDs"):

4.4.1 .co.uk; or
4.4.2 .org.uk.

In the SLD Charter of the SLD Rules for the Open SLDs we do set out certain intentions regarding the class of applicant or use of registrations of the Domain Name which we assume you will comply with when applying for a registration of a Domain Name within an Open SLD. However, we do not forbid applications, and will take no action in respect of registrations that do not comply with the SLD Charters. We may request certain information from you regarding your legal identity when you make an application for or seek to amend the registration of a Domain Name in the Open SLDs.

http://www.nominet.org.uk/uk-domain-names/registering-uk-domain/choosing-domain-name/rules

That's not hidden somewhere in a weird place, it's part of the main "Rules" document that all domain registrants agree to when they register a domain.

Their wording really couldn't be any clearer, and that why I said there's no such thing as a .org.uk registration that "breaks the rules". It specifically DOESN'T break them!

 

[Skinner]

I have pretty much taken external dev plans to the slaughter house and put a boltgun to their heads where the domain *could* be lost, as its essentially dead meat. This would include a half dozen already built sites which will simply run as-if for now.

I am thinking twice about catching names where the .org/me.uk was registered before the 18th June, those registered on or after the 18th June I suspect the legal position on them maybe questionable and possibly deemed abusive regs, I'm just not 100% how it would work or if, but gut feeling when it comes to deadlines is the announcement of this could be factored.

Can I assume that most of you now have stopped any drop-catching of .uk domains where another .uk extension is already registered?

 

[Murray]

Can I assume that most of you now have stopped any drop-catching of .uk domains where another .uk extension is already registered?

Id love this to be the case

 

[Jump]

@Skinner

When .cn and .mx were launched, .com.cn and .com.mx had first right of refusal. Three months or something like that. I had trademark names I wanted to reg and in two instances, the third-level never took up that right. So you never know. People can be pretty dumb when it comes to naming rights, eg when you catch a name for someone you know and they dont get it at all, that you have done them a missive favour.

 

[Stephen]

.org.uk self policing?

I did several pages back, but happy to repeat it (emphasis is mine):

http://www.nominet.org.uk/uk-domain-names/registering-uk-domain/choosing-domain-name/rules

That's not hidden somewhere in a weird place, it's part of the main "Rules" document that all domain registrants agree to when they register a domain.

Their wording really couldn't be any clearer, and that why I said there's no such thing as a .org.uk registration that "breaks the rules". It specifically DOESN'T break them!

Edwin, thanks for posting again and I now accept "Nominet would not enforce a non-commercial usage of .org.uk" and they have clearly stated that in the rules as you point out.

However looking at the statement, I think Nominet can rely on their inteneded usage statement from those rules, that .org.uk should be for non-commerical use:

In the SLD Charter of the SLD Rules for the Open SLDs we do set out certain intentions regarding the class of applicant or use of registrations of the Domain Name which we assume you will comply with when applying for a registration of a Domain Name within an Open SLD.

On reading the rules you provided, I would image Nominet wanted to avoid policing a difficult area,
which would be expensive for them to do and leave it to the office of fair trading, FSA and othersd to do so, based on content and usage.

If you take that "reliance of non-commercial" and a big leap I know, that .uk would be for Business, which is inherently commercial, then .org.uk would have no rights to it.

• In .uk V1 (which is dead) .uk was clearly for business.
  
• Common sense would state .uk is for business, as if yu wanted other types they have there own specific purpose built UK tld.
  
• The numbers of domains and usage in the UK namespace would demonstrate it is going to be for business.
  
• The majority of .org.uk have a FTR equivalent .co.uk
  
• Latest Nominet V2.0 .uk press release states:
  "The .uk namespace is a vital building block for the UK’s digital economy."

Nominet overall statement in recent press release:
"Combining a shorter suffix with the trust of the ‘.uk’ brand will offer a wider choice for both existing .uk registrants and the millions of consumers and businesses who are not yet online, and now want their own online space. "
does not make it clear, what .uk will stand for. Except to muddy the waters.

I look forward to seeing how a "agreatplacetobe.co.uk" states what place .uk is in the offering, that is the UK namespace.

 

[Stephen]

The Detail

This was true in V1. It looks like Nominet has moved away from that idea in V2. I need to see the final document to be sure (don't we all?) but the language they use in talking about the V2 proposal has definitely become a lot more inclusive.

Do you think Nominet have changed position or they are just being cynical in trying to get the new .uk proposal through?

Yes, it will be interesting in the least to see the final Nominet document,
the small print, the ommissions, the bais of their actions,
the studies undertaken,
the proof that .uk is needed at all,
the way they are going to communicate to all UK domain holders this time to get a proper view from the UK namspace users,
dealing with all the issues raised in version 1,
what there predications are for take up,
how auctions will figure,
why have they not taken more from the .nz second proposal,
and why Nominet need to charge at all for .uk?

 

[monaghan]

But if people need a new commercial ext and need more names, why not start up .net.uk or .gt.uk and have them on there. Nobody would give a dam to be honest how they were released then.

Why does it have to be at a higher level?

That's what I've been saying from the original .uk proposal

By moving to direct.uk you reduce the number of .uk domains that will be in use as there will be name.uk and name.co.uk, however this works out the majority of brands will own both names so there will only be the 1 operational business using name.uk & name.co.uk

Drop this into further levels and you can have name.co.uk, name.town.uk, name.market_sector.uk and you can have multiple businesses using the same name.

Earlier there was mention over the parked names preventing UK business from getting on-line - surely anyone with the knowledge to get on-line would be able to register the .com or a variant of their name in .co.uk or any other extension, after all, you wouldn't go out to buy a car and come home empty handed if the one shown in the paper had been sold but there was a similar model on the forecourt would you, why would you not start your business over a domain name or availability of a retail outlet unless the idea wasn't sound from the start?

 

[Edwin]

Do you think Nominet have changed position or they are just being cynical in trying to get the new .uk proposal through?

Of course they have changed position. It's like any negotiation. You shoot for the sky, and when that fails you come back having digested the objections, the comments, the suggestions and the rest of the input with a revised proposal designed to counter as much of them as is feasible. In Nominet's case, they over-fuelled the rocket in the initial "shoot for the sky" phase and looked pretty foolish as a result.

V1 was way too "crazy" for V2 to have been tucked away in a drawer from the beginning (i.e. pre-V1) as a backup plan. I genuinely think V1 was a case of "let's see what's the absolute maximum we can get away with... and who knows, we just might!" drafted by people with too much arrogance/confidence in their ability for their own good.

There are a lot of accusations that can be levelled against Nominet (I've thrown a fair few about myself) but V1 wasn't the way to go if they wanted to slip something past the Members and the general public quietly. Something much closer to V2 would have ruffled far fewer feathers. No, V1 was "it" at the time. They tried it on, they failed. And with that failure, they reluctantly kissed the £billions from auctions goodbye and resolved to at least get the £tens-of-millions/year in additional registration/renewal fees.

But having had the spotlight shone squarely on their intentions because of the totally "out there" ridiculousness of V1 - and because at the end of the day, Nominet really want .uk to go ahead - they had to come up with a fallback position that erred on the side of reasonableness.

When the only thing to come out of .uk (from Nominet's point of view) is more renewal fees, there's no pressure on them to try and paint it as an "extension for businesses" (which was a way to get advertisers, marketers and businesses fired up for auctions and more auctions). Rather, it benefits them to make the potential "pool" of .uk registrants as wide as possible. They make exactly the same from a business, a non-profit, a partnership or an individual registering a .uk domain, after all...

 

[foz]

In the .NZ proposal they have used a test of sorts to determine who is more deserving.

Not so. Conflicting parties had two years to sort it out amongst themselves, if no resolution, the domain would not be allowed to be registered at all, ever.

 

[foz]

I'm advocating a filter of purpose not useage.

• .uk is the new business extension for a new age
• .co.uk is for business
• .org.uk is for non-profit

.co.uk is used by everyone now, its not exclusively a business extension.

 

[Edwin]

.co.uk is used by everyone now, its not exclusively a business extension.

Spot on.

Likewise, .org.uk is used by everyone now, it's not exclusively a non-profit extension.

You can't change the rules on .org.uk after 17 years of allowing them to be sold with an explicit (not implicit) "we WILL look the other way" baked into the registration rules. Not if you want to be fair to all the hundreds of thousands of registrants who played by the rules up until then.

 

[Murray]

Likewise, .org.uk is used by everyone now, it's not exclusively a non-profit extension.

I don't disagree, but it's still not the same.

Would someone spend the same money on a domain like elephant.org.uk vs elephant.co.uk?

Of course not.

Elephant.org.uk sounds like a charity for elephants, which it's suppose to, not a commercial business.

No way should a me.uk or org.uk get first option on a .uk.

But then no way should .uk be released.

I can't believe so many people who were against it originally now seem to be buying into the whole idea of .uk.

There is no demand for .uk & no need for it.

Instead of discussing whats the least worst option, why aren't we discussing how to get nominet to drop the whole thing.

As again, there will be no "best option" for release, just the least worst option.

 

[Edwin]

I can't believe so many people who were against it originally now seem to be buying into the whole idea of .uk.

There is no demand for .uk & no need for it.

Instead of discussing whats the least worst option, why aren't we discussing how to get nominet to drop the whole thing.

As again, there will be no "best option" for release, just the least worst option.

Perhaps it would be more productive to have two separate threads?

One to strategise the best way to release .uk if it ends up going ahead. (no good covering our ears and shutting our eyes and pretending that it definitely won't)

The other to marshall a coherent, logical argument as to why it shouldn't, and to devise strategies to prevent it from doing so. For example, media outreach, approaches to MPs, etc. Much like V1.

At the moment, this thread has kind of ended up by default as a big bucket of posts trying to do both of the above at once - and neither very well (too much "cross-talk" between the two separate sets of ideas - oppose vs refine)

 

[foz]

Would someone spend the same money on a domain like elephant.org.uk vs elephant.co.uk?

No. .co.uk is king, with .uk looking to dethrone.

 

[Stephen]

.co.uk for business

.co.uk is used by everyone now, its not exclusively a business extension.

Non-commercial people/organizations I agree do own .co.uk and some even use .co.uk for non-commerical purposes
but the number would be small % of those registered,
as most would either use .org.uk or one of the other 3rd level extensions or more than that use free websites such as Facebook and other 3rd party sites to host their content.

In .uk version 1.0 debate many aurgued if there was a great demand for more space in the UK namespace from non-commercial people/organizations then ascertain the numbers and needs and consider launching other 3rd level domain tld's such .blog.uk, .net.uk, .info.uk etc.

I hope Nominet publish the study that show the truth that rather than the anecdotal evidence Nominet used last time to justify their actions.

I do think a lot more first and surnames would be valuable as .uk as they would certainly appeal to many as non-commercial UK email addresses!!

So even if Nominet stated .uk was for business, not all would use it as such and much more than use .co.uk for non-commerical purposes.

What would Nominet advert look like, for explaining what tld extension is for what I wonder,
last time they had not even given it the slightest thought,
I wonder if they will be more pepared this time and what will it will say?