Nominet announces new policy consultation for expiring .UK domains

[Derek]

@Hay If someone shared his script without permission shame on them and you would think you would have enough shame not to admit picking over it

Its a game of "best cheater wins". Of course they're going to steal each others work when a chance arises. They're all in direct competition to see who can break the rules in the most profitable way, its very naive to expect any level of honesty between any of them.

 

[Murray]

Its a game of "best cheater wins". Of course they're going to steal each others work when a chance arises.

I did word it specifically "you would think you would have enough shame not to admit picking over it"

If something falls in your lap and it could give you a competitive edge then yeah of course you're going to look but if you know you've got it through illicit means at least have the decorum to keep it to yourself, let alone rub it in their faces that they're had their hard work leaked

Is there no honour amongst thieves tut tut

 

[Derek]

I did word it specifically "you would think you would have enough shame not to admit picking over it"

If something falls in your lap and it could give you a competitive edge then yeah of course you're going to look but if you know you've got it through illicit means at least have the decorum to keep it to yourself, let alone rub it in their faces that they're had their hard work leaked

Is there no honour amongst thieves tut tut

Denis used his blog to out multiple people.

Rob used a note on the UKBA homepage to encourage people to complain to Nominet about BHAYDOM.

Its not much of a surprise BHAYDOM is now using Acorn to gloat and annoy people.

 

[Hay]

Denis used his blog to out multiple people.

Lets get one thing right... i guarantee each and every one of you would keep your mouths shut if you had some competitive edge, at least i had the arse to speak to nominet and give them step by step instructions on how to replicate and fix open flaws... any of you greedy fuckers would have sat on it and cleaned up for months on end and those that are not able to code something themselves just turn to bitching because jealously gets the better of them and they are clueless on how to build a better script for their own use rather than relying on 3rd party scripts or renting someone like Robs for a 50% share of any catch they get...!!

im my eyes im all for nominet changing and removing dac.. Im going to suggest a given account can buy unlimited connections as oppose to 60 or whatever they plan... Anything to ensure that more than 1 account is rendered useless.. and if they can't do that then auction every domain themselves and everyone can send xmas cards to ukbo saying thankyou.

 

[LCHappy]

Lets get one thing right... i guarantee each and every one of you would keep your mouths shut if you had some competitive edge, at least i had the arse to speak to nominet and give them step by step instructions on how to replicate and fix open flaws... any of you greedy fuckers would have sat on it and cleaned up for months on end and those that are not able to code something themselves just turn to bitching because jealously gets the better of them and they are clueless on how to build a better script for their own use rather than relying on 3rd party scripts or renting someone like Robs for a 50% share of any catch they get...!!

im my eyes im all for nominet changing and removing dac.. Im going to suggest a given account can buy unlimited connections as oppose to 60 or whatever they plan... Anything to ensure that more than 1 account is rendered useless.. and if they can't do that then auction every domain themselves and everyone can send xmas cards to ukbo saying thankyou.

Shame Rob got you banned when helptobuyorg.uk dropped, that would have been nice.That must hurt a bit, surely?

 

[mcrick]

Regarding the consultation, I don't know why this all has to come at once. I think the majority agree on publishing droplists and releasing at a specified time. That should remove the need to collude on DAC access and allow nominet to deal prepare for and deal with the technical requirements in a more consitent manner. Why can't they ship this and then re-assess.

If Nominet simply began publishing domain name drop times, negating the requirement for using the DAC, how many currently free registrar tags that are linked to existing Nominet memberships as well as currently free tags that wouldn’t be linked to any Nominet membership do you think would immediately be applied for, each giving 6 additional EPP connections and additional EPP create requests? The cost to register a domain name with a free to obtain non-member linked registrar tag is £80+VAT, payable only when a successful registration occurs. Very cheap for a very desirable domain name that would sell on for a multiple of that.

 

[mcrick]

So they received responses from 2.56% of members. Why is there not a minimum threshold or a voting system for introducing big changes to registry policies?

No. Consultations are open to anyone. Consultation’s aren’t votes. Nothing unique about this and Nominet. Look at OFCOM and many other consultations.

 

[mcrick]

I understand that the charitable foundation was dropped in the last couple of years. So where would the profits of the proposed auctions and EPP access actually be going as my understanding is that they are already quite "profitable" even if they are (or aren't technically anymore) classed as a "non-profit". I'm confused...

Some explanation here

 

[davedevelopment]

If Nominet simply began publishing domain name drop times, negating the requirement for using the DAC, how many currently free registrar tags that are linked to existing Nominet memberships as well as currently free tags that wouldn’t be linked to any Nominet membership do you think would immediately be applied for, each giving 6 additional EPP connections and additional EPP create requests? The cost to register a domain name with a free to obtain non-member linked registrar tag is £80+VAT, payable only when a successful registration occurs. Very cheap for a very desirable domain name that would sell on for a multiple of that.

Fair point! Would it be any worse than what we have now?

 

[ian]

If Nominet simply began publishing domain name drop times, negating the requirement for using the DAC, how many currently free registrar tags that are linked to existing Nominet memberships as well as currently free tags that wouldn’t be linked to any Nominet membership do you think would immediately be applied for, each giving 6 additional EPP connections and additional EPP create requests? The cost to register a domain name with a free to obtain non-member linked registrar tag is £80+VAT, payable only when a successful registration occurs. Very cheap for a very desirable domain name that would sell on for a multiple of that.

Make use of EPP a membership perk without charging on top of what we already do.

 

[mcrick]

Fair point! Would it be any worse than what we have now?

Much worse. I speculate that we might then find one or two parties would manage to use dozens or more individuals to create the same number of free non-member registrar tags to then use them in concert. Many others might just ask a few close friends and family members.

There’d be absolutely no setup fee or ongoing cost to do this. All those free tags sending unnecessary create requests could eventually put too much additional load on the main systems and would encourage an unnecessary proliferation of free registrar tags potentially up in the many thousands. I hope this explains where the economically controlled option in the consultation came from.

 

[mcrick]

Make use of EPP a membership perk without charging on top of what we already do.

So you want to turn off non-member registrar tags? That disadvantages those who wish to have a tag to interface with the registry without being a member and don’t want to drop catch. Not really very fair to those people, however if making EPP a member only benefit then we’d a still see umpteen members created via proxy person for the sole purpose of drop catching. Playing devils advocate, how many forum users have worked out that they probably aren’t going to need all those memberships they’ve paid for over the past few years?

 

[Siusaidh]

Sorry, I had an intense day's work yesterday so I'm just catching up on the news (which I knew was coming but I didn't know exactly when)...

Lets get one thing right... i guarantee each and every one of you would keep your mouths shut if you had some competitive edge... you greedy fuckers would have sat on it and cleaned up for months on end and those that are not able to code something themselves just turn to bitching because jealously gets the better of them

It's not about jealousy, it's about fairness. When greed takes over, and people shaft the system, or resort to what you call "extreme measures", then as that increases more and more, you're going to get system crash - and that's exactly what you have now. The rules were either deliberately not enforced, or more likely, the rules were crap because they were so easy to circumvent. No rules, people playing the system - you end up with bedlam. Was it allowed to happen as a pretext? I have no idea.

Do you think I enjoyed calling out this whole system the way I did? Way to go to make myself unpopular. But I was calling out the total unacceptability of idiots thinking the UK namespace belonged to them, to cheat it, to disrupt it, and I predicted that if this went on, then Nominet would pull the rug... and it looks like they're on the verge of doing just that. The cheats and exploiters, who thought they were so clever, have nuked the system.

My own view now: if a really tight system could be created AND ENFORCED (for which, of course, there has to be a WILL to enforce)... then I would be fine with that. But is that going to happen? It could happen, but I don't think it will. Otherwise, following the ruthless logic, domain catching will be replaced with auction method. I've already explained how that will work. People more or less dismissed my prediction in January as left field, and here we are. I warned several times that the mayhem of rival complaints, and the uproar, and the actual cheating, would lead to the end of the old. And it has.

It has, because Nominet acts in its own interests. It is no longer your little local non-profit being run for the Nominet Trust. It is a profit-seeking investment entity, which includes the recent purchase of CyGlass. It doesn't need "the little people" if they are bombarding it with problems, controversies, complaints, cheating, uproar. By January, after the (in my view) idiotic decision to let mega Registrars like Namesco and 123 reg mass-register, and the crazed feeding frenzy when Namesco's mass-registrations were finally being released that month, the writing was on the wall. But the gaming carried on. We shall probably see it all over again when Fasthosts and Ionos1&1's names drop in September. Why? The rules are not being enforced. I agree with those who say they can't effectively be enforced. They are too loose.

But to be direct - I have little sympathy with you coming here, Ben, and addressing us all as if we are all cheats and 'greedy f*****s' - because hey! great! the chickens have come home to roost. To add to that, you've come here, time and again, to gloat. I don't like that. Very unclassy. No, we are NOT all cheats. You seem to have a very jaundiced view of human beings. SOME people are cheats. And they have run riot over process. "Technical arms race" was about right. But not fair technical arms race. Not fair, for the millions of people who would prefer the UK namespace to simply be run with due process, clear rules, and some kind of order.

By January the situation had become untenable. It was anything goes, as long as you could get away with it. We all saw that. I'm a logical, not that stupid person, who saw back then it was over. It was imploding. You resorting to what you euphemistically describe as "extreme measures" did not help, even if you then thought you'd become poacher turned gamekeeper - at least that's your narrative. I risked unpopularity (and I get that) for saying 'Okay, then it's an auction then' because at least that could be run with enforceable rules. On reflection, I'm not even sure about that - because there are further issues down the auction road: if Nominet can auction expired domains for sale on Day 90... are you sure large registrars won't auction them first (to get their share of the pickings - and would Nominet challenge that if they did)?

Those of you who want to reclaim a truly fair and rules-enforced dropping system better get to work to build the case. Maybe a team of you, and maybe bring in Andrew Bennett, and there will be others who might piece an argument together. However, what I see is wreckage, and it would be a huge uphill persuasion job. My position is: clear rules must be rigorously enforced. That means, they must be rules that CAN be enforced, and cannot be exploited or circumvented without penalty. Failing that, it will be an auction system... which is really unpopular to say here for the obvious reasons we all know. What it can't be, is the system as it stands - because that's broken... trashed by people who in all kinds of ways saw the whole UK namespace as prey. It was already in need of review. It couldn't stay 1999 forever.

One or two don't get it. You were already losing the old order back in January (and indeed before). It was unravelling. Nominet control was failing to police effectively... even if they would say that they tried... the rules were simply not possible to police, even if they wanted to. Meanwhile they followed the old ICANN principle of letting large tech companies (their best customers) police themselves when it came to things like the creation of millions of 'ghost registrants' with domains they never asked for - in the process disrupting agreed process, because 'that was a matter for those Registrars'.

I will continue to say unpopular things. Whether I'm saying harsh things here, or harsh things addressed to the Nominet Board or Executive.What I won't do is come online with outrageous bravado, accuse everyone of being cheating f*****s, and then claim kudos for telling Nominet what I've been doing. Especially when all the malarkey (whoever did it) - and the circumventing of rules has led to shambles.

This is the UK's namespace. It doesn't belong to Namesco or GoDaddy or a cartel at home or abroad... in fact it doesn't even belong to Nominet - they are meant to be 'stewards', ensuring it runs safely and well for all. Because big tech has disproportionate influence and sway, frankly I doubt this whole affair will be seen as anything more than putting unwanted hassle to bed. And thanks to certain people there has been HUGE and unwanted hassle. I suspect Nominet are close to thinking 'We just don't need this recurring shit-storm'. Because things have run amok this year.

There is about a month to organise and sort things out if you're going to. I'm sorry for the many people here who've been decent to me, but I'm afraid I think this is the way it is.

Susannah (trying to tell it how it is)

 

[Siusaidh]

I would actually respect a Nominet Board member having the balls to come to the forum here, to argue a corner, because not many would. But please... for a person in that position to make repeated appearances under substitute usernames... that's kind of bizarre. If that applies to anyone on this thread, then kindly have the dignity to disclose yourself and I may give some attention to things you say. Otherwise - it's embarrassing. Man, I look forward to meeting you at my first Board Meeting...

 

[Derek]

Can anyone give a reason why we need to run this technical / cheating arms race at all? Its pretty ridiculous, and "we've always done it this way" really isn't good enough to avoid improving something.

If you can find a flaw currently you can win an unfair share of domains. If you have a bunch of "tag partners" you can win an unfair share too. I think this is going to go down the path of everything being auctioned, its the only genuinely fair way.

Why wouldn't Nominet go with the 100% fair way, that also means they get to keep the money being generated? I think they've already decided they're going to do that and this consultation is just a waste of everyones time.

 

[ian]

Much worse. I speculate that we might then find one or two parties would manage to use dozens or more individuals to create the same number of free non-member registrar tags to then use them in concert. Many others might just ask a few close friends and family members.

There’d be absolutely no setup fee or ongoing cost to do this. All those free tags sending unnecessary create requests could eventually put too much additional load on the main systems and would encourage an unnecessary proliferation of free registrar tags potentially up in the many thousands. I hope this explains where the economically controlled option in the consultation came from.

This is precisely what we had with ROR, no requirement for DAC meant countless tags were registered (without membership), waited to see the successes, then registered memberships before the billing date based on this. I get that Nominet would need to avoid this (or facilitate better control of their approval processes), but throwing a price tag on being successful panders only to those with deep pockets (maybe those that have had most success this past year or two), and doesn't even the playing field, it just reduces the need for more memberships. Having said that, I'm obviously in favour of this approach than auctions.

 

[Derek]

Having said that, I'm obviously in favour of this approach than auctions.

Why would you obviously favour a method that will encourage and reward cheating, than a fair method?

 

[diablo]

I would actually respect a Nominet Board member having the balls to come to the forum here, to argue a corner, because not many would. But please... for a person in that position to make repeated appearances under substitute usernames... that's kind of bizarre. If that applies to anyone on this thread, then kindly have the dignity to disclose yourself and I may give some attention to things you say. Otherwise - it's embarrassing. Man, I look forward to meeting you at my first Board Meeting...

Wasn't going to bother voting, but Susannah's now got my vote.

 

[mcrick]

I think they've already decided they're going to do that and this consultation is just a waste of everyones time.

I don’t think they have. I believe they are genuinely open to sensible and well thought out consultation responses.

This is precisely what we had with ROR, no requirement for DAC meant countless tags were registered (without membership), waited to see the successes, then registered memberships before the billing date based on this. I get that Nominet would need to avoid this (or facilitate better control of their approval processes), but throwing a price tag on being successful panders only to those with deep pockets (maybe those that have had most success this past year or two), and doesn't even the playing field, it just reduces the need for more memberships. Having said that, I'm obviously in favour of this approach than auctions.

Don’t you think that it ultimately always comes back to money, and has done for the past twenty years too? How much is one party prepared to pay to gain a limited resource compared to another. I’ve obviously read claims by some that they say they’ve never breached the AUPs but I suspect a significant number of others have been involved in registar (and membership to gain multiple DAC) stacking through proxies to one extent or another, from the mild to the severe. Even those that are customers of hosted service that mandate all catches go to auction and proceeds are split 50:50 aren’t operating at arms length, which is surely a breach of the AUPs too.

The options presented in the consultation paper were probably not the only options considered but they are the most logical. Obviously auctions are commonplace. The other economically controlled option is to try to prevent the proliferation of unnecessary membership and registrar tag resources while at the same time offering a dedicated system with a way for registrars to participate by instead paying for more access and using more technical means. Nominet accept that some won’t stop themselves from finding a way to pay for more access and trying to prevent that is fruitless. Might be sensible for us all to be honest and open about that part. A lot of people have likely done very well with a system that hasn’t been reviewed in an incredibly long time but eventually things have needed reviewing. Staying as things are doesn’t seem sensible.

 

[Murray]

Whether you like catching or not it's a welcome income for a lot of individuals

Ok some might be people using unsavoury methods to get an unfair slice of the pie but even the crumbs are decent for people like me

Of all the times for Nominet to take away a means of making some income 2020 seems like the worst

I know they don't owe anyone a living but still, unfortunate timing