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gordon said:
Companies house employs more than 1100 staff to manage around 2million registratrions, spending 23.6million on salaries in the last published report, Nominet 130 staff for around 4million registrations, spending 3.8million on salaries in the last published report. If you do comparisons please make sure you use enough data to truly compare the organisations and the roles, responsibilities and efficiencies.
…Oh Gordon what a big hole you have dug for yourself. :)

Simple Maths based on your figures:

Nominet is spending an average 1.36 times more ‘per head’ on salaries than Companies House.

Simple Question Gordon: - Have ‘you’ all by yourself (not an accountant or such like) ‘ever’ set up a company? Do you even really know what a company is? Do you even have a basic understanding what Companies House does?

...I could go on, but I’ll stop, as those who truly know the difference between a domain registration and company formation, legal status, company accounts submission etc. (basically Companies House stuff), will understand where I’m coming from.

Conclusion:

Nominet is spending on average 1.36 times (36% more) 'per head' more than Companies House for a Far, Far easier job! …End Of!

So please, please no more BS. :rolleyes:

Many thanks in advance. :mrgreen:

Sneezycheese.
 
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sneezycheese said:
Nominet is spending an average 1.36 times more ‘per head’ on salaries than Companies House.

Absolutely, but look at the efficiencies they get for that money. :)

sneezycheese said:
Simple Question Gordon: - Have ‘you’ all by yourself (not an accountant or such like) ‘ever’ set up a company? Do you even really know what a company is? Do you even have a basic understanding what Companies House does?

Absolutely, have set up several personally.

sneezycheese said:
...I could go on, but I’ll stop, as those who truly know the difference between a domain registration and company formation, legal status, company accounts submission etc. (basically Companies House stuff), will understand where I’m coming from.

I am fully aware of what Companies House does and what Nominet does, are you?

sneezycheese said:
Conclusion:
Nominet is spending on average 1.36 times (36% more) 'per head' more than Companies House

...but if you pay more per head you get 1 person that can do the job of 2 or 3 or more thus saving you overall.

Nominet get more than 200% the registrations in the last published accounts for that average per head pay that would seem quite an efficient way to spend money.

You have to compare what you get for the money as well as the money spent to consider if it is well spent. It is hardly a shock to anyone that knows even basic business and government to realise a private company with good staff is likely to pay more per head than a government agency.

Gordon
 
Firstly, Nominet does not handle double the registrations that Companies House does. Nominet registrations are done bi-annually - so each year only half of the total actually get registered or renewed.

Companies House deals with at least an Annual Return and a set of Accounts for each company every year. So even on the crude numbers, they deal with about double the amount of pieces of data per annum when compared to Nominet.

Scondly, consider the type of information and the quantum. If I understand it correctly, Nominet receives data processed for them by a TAG holder. I'm not a TAG holder - so please correct me if I'm wrong - but as I understand it basically that information goes straight into the Nominet system and is then accessible online. It is not checked or verified. What happens when a renewal takes place I don't know - but could someone please confirm whether or not it is simply an online payment of the £5 + VAT fee, with no data changed.

Conversely, at a minimum Companies House takes in an Annual Return (now incentivised to be done online, but I'd hazzard a guess that most are still paper) - which needs checking and then posting onto the database. Likewise Annual Accounts (which other than dormant ones, have no standard form) which need checking and again converting to electronic form. Then there are changes in officers, changes in shareholdings, register of charges etc. etc. - all of which undergo at least basic checks to confirm the validity.

Also a domain registration for BigPLC.co.uk requires no more data than one for AnyOther.co.uk. The records for big public companies are much bigger than those for smaller ones - so require more work. People rely on the data from Companies House as accurate. I don't think anyone would make the same claim for WHOIS.

So the rough comparison by quantum is - to put it bluntly - rubbish.

Companies House also has to deal with England and Wales, Scottish and NI systems. It has offices in all of those places. It has scaled back its London operation - it used to be in City Road and I remember not that long ago (prewidespread internet, say 12 years ago) having to go there to microfiche search company data. Now that info costs £1 a pop to download in seconds. I imagine as time moves on there will be even more economies brought by IT and imagine that their headcount will drop accordingly.

Companies House is more customer facing - I file my own returns etc. direct because it's cheaper. Nominet has constructed a system whereby it's cheaper to go through a third party (A Nominet member) - who in turn do much of the work for them.

What is unarguable is that Companies House (and for that matter the Patent Office) are about 10 times or more the size of Nominet by headcount and turnover. Yet (according to the latest available figures) Nomient paid its top executive over £250K and its second top exec over £150K. Each of the others paid their top person a touch under £100K.

Now if you say "But Nominet is a private company, they can pay what they like." I say "They should not be a private company, and this is just one reason why this is so.".
 
Beasty said:
So the rough comparison by quantum is - to put it bluntly - rubbish.

Let me make clear, I was not suggesting it was a full comparison, I was suggesting that you need to take those into account as well as much more.


Beasty said:
What is unarguable is that Companies House (and for that matter the Patent Office) are about 10 times or more the size of Nominet by headcount and turnover. Yet (according to the latest available figures) Nomient paid its top executive over £250K and its second top exec over £150K. Each of the others paid their top person a touch under £100K.

Anyone that can read accounts can determine why that was a unique year. However I agree the top exec gets paid more than the top exec at Companies House.

Beasty said:
Now if you say "But Nominet is a private company, they can pay what they like." I say "They should not be a private company, and this is just one reason why this is so.".

That is a fair enough point of view to hold, but the government itself prefer private businesses doing things due to the red tape placed on government bodies. I can understand both points of view.

Gordon
 
sneezycheese said:
...I could go on, but I’ll stop, as those who truly know the difference between a domain registration and company formation, legal status, company accounts submission etc. (basically Companies House stuff), will understand where I’m coming from.

It wouldn't be long before the govt would introduce all sorts of extra "very important" categories and "essential" admin to complicate the domain business equally.

It will all be very very important and necessary and completely justified - for those that want it that way.

-aqls-
 
Further to my invitation to meet big bad Nominet, ;-)

Beasty said:
JAC - I hope you can help me with the itunes case.

I have not found a copy of the decision - although it is an High Court (Administrative Division) Decision - and so ought to be on BAILII and so on. Reports of the decision seem to suggest - if read carefully - that the Application was dismissed because it was brought before all DRS appeal procedures had been exhausted and because it was out of time for such an Application.

I have not seen a quote stating that it also said that Nominet was not subject to Judicial Review - in fact some commentators seem to say the opposite. Now I know that if it had proceeded there was going to argument about Nominet's status - but I am less than clear whether it needed to be considered - and much less that it was a victory for Nominet on that point. Here are the repected IPKat's reports on the case:

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2005/10/stephen-stewart-lecture-and-failed.html

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2005/11/out-of-tune.html

You'll see the quote from Ed Phillips seems far more qualified in the second part - more repeating the Nominet argument, but not saying that that was what the Court held.

If you have a copy of the Judgment, perhaps you could put us all out of our misery and let us have sight of it. It's not on the Nominet site where Court cases involving them are listed.

Hi Beasty

Rather than us argue opinions on this point ad infinitum, why don't you ask him yourself? I'll also post this separately in case others don't see it.

Further to my invitation to meet and discuss your questions and grievances with Nominet in Oxford, I can offer Thursday, 22nd June, from 12-2pm (lunch provided) or Monday, 3rd July, from 12-2pm (lunch provided).

On Nominet's side will be Lesley Cowley (CEO), Emily Taylor (Director of Legal and Policy), Ed Philips (Solicitor/Legal Dept.) and hopefully Jay Daley (Director of IT).

Can those who would like to attend please email me privately [email protected] so I can tell Nominet who is actually attending. Real names would be helpful guys. If anyone doesn't know how to get there, I'll send directions and a map if you need 'em.

Thanks and regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
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Further to my invitation to meet big bad Nominet, ;-)

Further to my invitation to meet and discuss your questions and grievances with Nominet in Oxford, I can offer Thursday, 22nd June, from 12-2pm (lunch provided) or Monday, 3rd July, from 12-2pm (lunch provided).

On Nominet's side will be Lesley Cowley (CEO), Emily Taylor (Director of Legal and Policy), Ed Philips (Solicitor/Legal Dept.) and hopefully Jay Daley (Director of IT).

Can those who would like to attend please email me privately [email protected] so I can tell Nominet who is actually attending. Real names would be helpful guys. If anyone doesn't know how to get there, I'll send directions and a map if you need 'em.

Thanks and regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
Jac said:
Further to my invitation to meet and discuss your questions and grievances with Nominet in Oxford, I can offer Thursday, 22nd June, from 12-2pm (lunch provided) or Monday, 3rd July, from 12-2pm (lunch provided).

On Nominet's side will be Lesley Cowley (CEO), Emily Taylor (Director of Legal and Policy), Ed Philips (Solicitor/Legal Dept.) and hopefully Jay Daley (Director of IT).

Can those who would like to attend please email me privately [email protected] so I can tell Nominet who is actually attending. Real names would be helpful guys. If anyone doesn't know how to get there, I'll send directions and a map if you need 'em.

Thanks and regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

Thanks James - I will email you direct - but can I publicly vote for the 22nd June - as I can't make the 3 July date.
 
Jac said:
Hi Beasty

Rather than us argue opinions on this point ad infinitum, why don't you ask him yourself? I'll also post this separately in case others don't see it.
I took it from your earlier authoratative statement that you had seen the decision. Besides, Ed is far more likely to give you something...

That said, I can't think of any reason why it does not appear in the relevant section of the Nominet website. Can you?
 
grandin said:
jac you wrote: Nominet is acknowledged by the UK Government as the manager of the .uk domain and is in regular contact with the government. Whilst there may be no official agreement between Nominet and the Government there are various crown/civil servants from the DTI, OIC, Cabinet Office and House of Lords sitting on the Policy Advisory Board, so the government is well represented at all levels.

Interesting comment.....what I presume the PAB want is hard to implement given the current structure within Nominet.

Votes, Votes, Votes....if I had to get my staff to vote for all my changes I think I would sell out and move on.....what can Nominet actually do without gaining Votes from members?

What the PAB wants is dialogue and (perhaps surprisingly to some) much of the same stuff you guys argue on Acorn Domains. However, the stumbling block seems to be that some of the arguments on this board as highly subjective when the PAB has to be totally objective; otherwise it simply cannot be representative of the 'collective'; the wider stakeholder communities. If you look at the composition of the PAB you will see representatives from the DTI, CBI, ICO, Cabinet Office, House of Lords, Institute of Trademark Attorneys, Federation of Small Businesses, Oxford Internet Institute, and then 8 elected members who comprise employees of ISPs, Richard Martin (domainer), Hazel Pegg (not for profit in Glastonbury), Sebastien Lahtinen who runs both www.adslguide.org.uk and his own network (Telehouse and Redbus) offering colocation/dedicated servers, IP transit and IT consultancy for SMEs around the world.

Generally, Nominet follows the advice given by the PAB, so the communication bridge between the PAB and the board works reasonably well. There are of course some fiercely contested points at times, but that (IMHO) is what consensus is about; finding a middle ground that we can all live with.

On the question of "what can Nominet actually do without gaining Votes from members?" Actually, not a lot at present, which in the fast moving world of the internet is not even close to ideal. A balance has to be found between giving Nominet's board more freedom to make critical day to day decisions and ensuring we do not leave gaps open that a "bad board" could abuse in the future; but the balance simply has to be found and Nominet needs to be able to react more quickly to opportunities; without having to divulge commercially sensitive information to its members on every occasion, or ask the members everytime it wants to take a decision on prices or services. And before the usual suspects say this might be given the board too much authority, I would say this. It is not in the interests of any board to do anything that might elicit a "no confidence" vote from its members or shareholders, and someone has to trust someone somewhere otherwise business just marks time. As you point out, "if I had to get my staff to vote for all my changes I think I would sell out and move on".

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
texidriver said:
Jac said:
.......currently they can't even make the price lower so they can get rid of the reserve.

I know, I know, it is so hard, I thunk and thunk and but could only suggest,

burn it !

I think they could pay the PAB/ execs what they want.

let us ask Mr jealous

Texidriver

Instead of being a complete imbecile everytime you touch the keyboard, why don't you take up the invitation to come and join an adult debate at Nominet Oxford with some of the more reasonable people on this board. I look forward to meeting you.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
Jac said:
texidriver said:
Texidriver

Instead of being a complete imbecile everytime you touch the keyboard, why don't you take up the invitation to come and join an adult debate at Nominet Oxford with some of the more reasonable people on this board. I look forward to meeting you.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

Jac

You didn’t mention you would definitely be there.... :rolleyes: and which side of the bench you'll be sitting.... :lol: either way worth some greenies!

I will let you know which date is preferable :cool:

It maybe prudent for all us that are going to have a chat etc about issues we wish to discuss, no point going half-cocked! :twisted:
 
Beasty said:
Thanks James - I will email you direct - but can I publicly vote for the 22nd June - as I can't make the 3 July date.

Sooner than later would seem prudent (given some of the insults you guys have just hurled at Gordon). 22nd of this month would probably be best. Let's get some of these questions and grievances aired so you can get direct answers from the CEO and Nominet's Management Team.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
olebean said:
Jac

You didn’t mention you would definitely be there....

I set it up; I'll be there. That's called taking responsibility for what you say and do. :p

olebean said:
and which side of the bench you'll be sitting.... :lol: either way worth some greenies!

The PAB sits in the middle olebean ;) we have to listen to all sides of the argument otherwise we ain't doing our job. However, that doesn't mean I haven't got strongly held personal views either... so bring yer boxing gloves. :p As for greenies, if you mean money, we still don't get paid for this stuff, though even as far back as 1999 (when I first became a member) I argued the PAB should. I also understand the other viewpoint; that we might get the wrong people standing for the PAB, for the wrong reasons, if there was payment involved. However, remuneration is just a practical concern, it is not the criterion. The criterion (to me) is social responsibility to the community we all derive our living from. If you take from a community, I figure it just makes good sense to give back if and when you can. The point is; not that they will think you're a great person; but that you will feel better about yourself. I firmly believe in CSR (corporate social responsibility).

olebean said:
I will let you know which date is preferable

I look forward to meeting you.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
 
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Jac said:
Sooner than later would seem prudent (given some of the insults you guys have just hurled at Gordon). 22nd of this month would probably be best. Let's get some of these questions and grievances aired so you can get direct answers from the CEO and Nominet's Management Team.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]
I'm not aware that I hurled insults at anyone - but if I did then I apologise.
 
gordon said:
Let me make clear, I was not suggesting it was a full comparison, I was suggesting that you need to take those into account as well as much more.
Fair enough.


gordon said:
Anyone that can read accounts can determine why that was a unique year. However I agree the top exec gets paid more than the top exec at Companies House.
Indeed - Dr Black's salary seemed to almost double - though the CEO's pay rise wasn't bad either. However until the next year's accounts are published - they are the only one's we can refer to - since we can't FOIA Nominet for current information.
gordon said:
That is a fair enough point of view to hold, but the government itself prefer private businesses doing things due to the red tape placed on government bodies. I can understand both points of view.

Gordon
That may be so - but I'd say the question is at what point does the Internet and size of the registry require government to reconsider the approach it (understandably) took 10 years ago. Given the wide ranging review currently underway - predecated by the aborted EGM motions - now might be a good time for a proper government review.
 
Beasty said:
I took it from your earlier authoratative statement that you had seen the decision. Besides, Ed is far more likely to give you something...

That said, I can't think of any reason why it does not appear in the relevant section of the Nominet website. Can you?

To be honest, I can't remember the exact details of this case. I do know at one stage that Mr Cohen was making incredibly exaggerated comments about what he was going to do to Nominet in the Media. The last I remember seeing was that he had decided not to take his action any further. I can only assume, since he had taken legal advice throughout, that his legal advice suggested he would not win his rather flamboyant arguments. Personally, I would have preferred him to put his money where his mouth was; we might have seen a landmark decision that once and for all nailed the fact that Nominet is not a public authority.

Let's try and get yourself and a few others to a meeting with Nominet on the 22nd June and get some of this stuff aired.

Regards
James Conaghan
 
Jac said:
The PAB sits in the middle olebean ;) we have to listen to all sides of the argument otherwise we ain't doing our job.

Interesting position!

Jac said:
However, that doesn't mean I haven't got strongly held personal views either... so bring yer boxing gloves.

I'll just stick my false teeth in instead! :mrgreen:

Jac said:
As for greenies, if you mean money, we still don't get paid for this stuff, though even as far back as 1999 (when I first became a member) I argued the PAB should. I also understand the other viewpoint; that we might get the wrong people standing for the PAB, for the wrong reasons, if there was payment involved. However, remuneration is just a practical concern, it is not the criterion. The criterion (to me) is social responsibility to the community we all derive our living from. If you take from a community, I figure it just makes good sense to give back if and when you can. The point is; not that they will think you're a great person; but that you will feel better about yourself. I firmly believe in CSR (corporate social responsibility).

Again an interesting reply, even though I meant reputation greenies lol

Jac said:
I look forward to meeting you.

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

Is there easy access for the elderly.....
 
Jac said:
To be honest, I can't remember the exact details of this case. I do know at one stage that Mr Cohen was making incredibly exaggerated comments about what he was going to do to Nominet in the Media. The last I remember seeing was that he had decided not to take his action any further. I can only assume, since he had taken legal advice throughout, that his legal advice suggested he would not win his rather flamboyant arguments. Personally, I would have preferred him to put his money where his mouth was; we might have seen a landmark decision that once and for all nailed the fact that Nominet is not a public authority.

Let's try and get yourself and a few others to a meeting with Nominet on the 22nd June and get some of this stuff aired.

Regards
James Conaghan
His dad is a solicitor I think - so no doubt he was getting advice from the outset.

Now if someone could slip us a copy of the decision in good time for the 22nd - which I think was dealt with only as far as the "on paper" submission stage - then we can all be well informed before the day.
 
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