EU prior rights

[gordon]

That may be so - but I'd say the question is at what point does the Internet and size of the registry require government to reconsider the approach it (understandably) took 10 years ago. Given the wide ranging review currently underway - predecated by the aborted EGM motions - now might be a good time for a proper government review.

The government keeps in regular contact with Nominet and they work together on the international scene. The government are, of course, able to consider reviews at any time, the fact they haven't suggests they are content with the status quo. Nationalisation doesn't seem to be something governments of either colour like to consider nowadays.

Gordon

 

[olebean]

If you want exact like for like comparisons you have to look at the internet domain registry business, otherwise the comparison will not be truly like for like. My only reason for mentioning any comparison of Companies House was that others were suggesting Nominet was like it. I therefore quoted some particular benchmarks for Companies House/Nominet comparisons to be helpful.

Gordon

Gordan

I am not sure if Nominet, or other registaries would be up for scrutiny... I am sure it would be interesting to find out...

 

[gordon]

I am not sure if Nominet, or other registaries would be up for scrutiny... I am sure it would be interesting to find out...

There is a huge amount of information in the public domain that allows you to compare registries like with like without any further information. Have you ever tried asking them for information that is not already public? If there is no reason to keep it confidential many registries are happy to reply. The worst answer you could get is a "sorry we can't tell you" and you lose nothing by asking but may gain something.

Gordon

 

[olebean]

There is a huge amount of information in the public domain that allows you to compare registries like with like without any further information. Have you ever tried asking them for information that is not already public? If there is no reason to keep it confidential many registries are happy to reply. The worst answer you could get is a "sorry we can't tell you" and you lose nothing by asking but may gain something.

Gordon

Gordon

Hence the trip! face to face is always better!

OB

 

[Beasty]

Send me a ticket to Rarotonga and I may just show

Hazel

If the Banana Court bar is still going, we can meet in there. Dont forget your s

 

[Beasty]

There is a huge amount of information in the public domain that allows you to compare registries like with like without any further information. Have you ever tried asking them for information that is not already public? If there is no reason to keep it confidential many registries are happy to reply. The worst answer you could get is a "sorry we can't tell you" and you lose nothing by asking but may gain something.

Yes I have - and the answer was no. Likewise I was told that FOIA did not apply to Nominet and so the answer was no. Further that the EU regulations on awarding large contracts (i.e. putting them out to open tender) did not apply.

Bottom line is that - as JAC keeps telling us - they are a private company and so only have to disclose such information as the law requires. That is fine for almost all private (or even public) companies - but then they don't have a monopoly on a significant market.

The government keeps in regular contact with Nominet and they work together on the international scene. The government are, of course, able to consider reviews at any time, the fact they haven't suggests they are content with the status quo. Nationalisation doesn't seem to be something governments of either colour like to consider nowadays.

I agree - "nationalisation" is not appropriate. But neither is a free market - where the market consists of one privately owned monopolist. Government can deal with such situations by creating an executive agency of government - such as the Patent Office - which is both distinct from "nationalisation"; and at the same time under direct statutory control.

As for government being happy with the status quo - to date they have had no great reason to rock the boat and doubtless Nominet spends plenty of time and money lobbying those parts of government that are interested to keep things that way!

 

[aqls]

are you after a contract or something Beasty?

What's your motive (really!)

-aqls-

 

[gordon]

Yes I have - and the answer was no. Likewise I was told that FOIA did not apply to Nominet and so the answer was no.

What information did you ask for?

Further that the EU regulations on awarding large contracts (i.e. putting them out to open tender) did not apply.

Why did this concern you?

Bottom line is that - as JAC keeps telling us - they are a private company and so only have to disclose such information as the law requires. That is fine for almost all private (or even public) companies - but then they don't have a monopoly on a significant market.

Nominet don't have a monopoly on a significant market, they compete with many other TLDs.

I agree - "nationalisation" is not appropriate. But neither is a free market - where the market consists of one privately owned monopolist. Government can deal with such situations by creating an executive agency of government - such as the Patent Office - which is both distinct from "nationalisation"; and at the same time under direct statutory control.

Sorry I don't understand, can you explain why taking a service offered by a private company and making a goverment body offer that service instead is not "nationalisation"?

Gordon

 

[Whois-Search]

If the Banana Court bar is still going, we can meet in there. Dont forget your s

Which one is olebean:

http://fdt.net/~mosquito/raro9.htm

 

[olebean]

Which one is olebean:

http://fdt.net/~mosquito/raro9.htm

I'll be in the counting house! :twisted:

 

[Whois-Search]

Any good pubs in Oxford ? or is it all tea and cucumber sandwiches down there

 

[Jac]

Nominet don't have a monopoly on a significant market, they compete with many other TLDs.

For the sake of openness and transparency I have to disagree with you. Each ccTLD or gTLD registry is a natural monopoly in its own right; it cannot be anything else because you can only get .org from PIR, .com from Verisign, .eu from euRID and .uk from Nominet.

However, this does not (as Beasty suggests) make Nominet or any other registry a monopoly in the true or legal sense of the word. So how can I say this with such conviction? Because the DTI and EU competition authorities have already been over this with Nominet, back as far as 1999. (I keep saying this but just saying so doesn't seem to equate to understanding. )

At the 1999 AGM, Willie Black; then Chairman; presented a History of the Domain Name System and the Formation of Nominet. A transcript of this presentation was included in Nominet News Issue 5 shortly afterwards. This information is in the public domain so Nominet is not trying to hide anything. Here are the relevant excerpts (which I quote verbatim from the original).

Nominet was incorporated as a 'not for profit' company in May 1996 and the first AGM was held in July, prior to commencing operations on August 1st 1996.

Principles of a monopoly.

Both the British Government and the European Commission soon took an interest in what was happening, and representatives of Nominet met with the DTI and the EU competition authorities. They explained the criteria used to monitor a natural monopoly. To avoid censure, the organisation must be cost, not profit oriented, non-discriminatory and efficient. It must also encourage competition where possible.

Willie Black concluded his presentation by stating that Nominet has established a model whereby competition in Domain Name registration was vigorous between members, who offered a range of value added services not available from the Registry itself.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

Any good pubs in Oxford ? or is it all tea and cucumber sandwiches down there

Lunch is provided, so are drinks.

Get with the plan man!

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

 

[olebean]

Lunch is provided, so are drinks.

Get with the plan man!

Regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

Champagne on our fellow acorndomainers!

 

[gordon]

For the sake of openness and transparency I have to disagree with you. Each ccTLD or gTLD registry is a natural monopoly in its own right; it cannot be anything else because you can only get .org from PIR, .com from Verisign, .eu from euRID and .uk from Nominet.

Not sure why its for the sake of openness and transparency, I wasn't hiding anything just giving my own view. I still disagree with you. To determine if a monopoly exists you have to determine what the "market" is. I don't believe the market is for ".uk domains", but for "domains". I think many people consider which domain suffix they want in the same way I choose Irn Bru over Coke but settle for Coke when there is no choice left. There is significant competition between the TLDs.

Gordon

 

[Whois-Search]

So if I choose Linux over Windows ....... Microsoft don't have a monopoly ?

 

[Jac]

Not sure why its for the sake of openness and transparency, I wasn't hiding anything just giving my own view.

I used the expression openness and transparency because Nominet has always proudly proclaimed its own openness and transparency. That's called being accountable. I did not suggest you were hiding anything. That's called paranoia.

I still disagree with you. To determine if a monopoly exists you have to determine what the "market" is. I don't believe the market is for ".uk domains", but for "domains". I think many people consider which domain suffix they want in the same way I choose Irn Bru over Coke but settle for Coke when there is no choice left. There is significant competition between the TLDs.

Gordon

If you disagree with me then you are disagreeing with the British Government and the European Commission (i.e. DTI and the EU competition authorities). They regarded Nominet as a natural monopoly as far back as 1999 and IMO they still do. However; and for the sake of clarity; IMO there is nothing inappropriate about being a natural monopoly as long as you do not abuse the power of your unique position in the marketplace.

.COM and .CO.UK are still the most searched for domains. Personally, I advise all my clients to protect their domain name in both extensions. My own experience shows that people in the UK choose .co.uk primarily because it denotes a company trading in the UK; they choose .COM because it is still the singular most recognised extension on the web. There is indeed significant competition between the TLDs, like .com, .info, .org, .net... but you can't compete with .co.uk and .co.uk; they are the same. True competition in .uk would require another .uk registry to exist. There is no true competition in .com (except on price) just as there is no true competition in .co.uk (except on price)... but this doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things and it doesn't make Nominet a monopoly in the anti-competition sense.

Networksolutions was a US Government appointed monopoly when it was formed to handle .com and it was a 'for profit' registry with shareholders. Nominet is a not for profit entity and non-discriminatory and therefore is acceptable within the framework set by the DTI and the EU competition authorities.

So I don't know why you're disagreeing.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[sneezycheese]

This is the point I started bangling my head against the table. ...

Nominet don't have a monopoly on a significant market, they compete with many other TLDs.

Then Jac came along and made it all better with some sense, that on the whole I agreed with. ...

For the sake of openness and transparency I have to disagree with you. Each ccTLD or gTLD registry is a natural monopoly in its own right; it cannot be anything else because you can only get .org from PIR, .com from Verisign, .eu from euRID and .uk from Nominet.

Then gordon comes back with a reply and I'm banging my head against the table again ...

I still disagree with you. To determine if a monopoly exists you have to determine what the "market" is. I don't believe the market is for ".uk domains", but for "domains". I think many people consider which domain suffix they want in the same way I choose Irn Bru over Coke but settle for Coke when there is no choice left. There is significant competition between the TLDs.

...G a question: Lets say I set up a UK business selling shoes on the internet, which for obvious reasons isn't going to be for a global market due to the high postage costs. So here's the picture - I'm selling shoes - My market is the UK - It's an online business. Now I know that the key to my success is to have a good web site, which has been SEO'ed to the max to reduce my marketing costs. So to the domian, what 'choice' of suffix do I 'really' have???

...Here's a clue: http://search.ntlworld.com/ntlworld/search.php?q=shoes&cr=countryUK&x=16&y=9

Now I got to page 10 and gave up, cause guess what? - the Google search results had all .UK addresses.

Conclusion: I think you can probably draw your own.

 

[olebean]

On Nominet's side will be Lesley Cowley (CEO), Emily Taylor (Director of Legal and Policy), Ed Philips (Solicitor/Legal Dept.) and hopefully Jay Daley (Director of IT).

Thanks and regards
James Conaghan
[PAB Member]

Hoey

Yes she will

OB

 

[Jac]

So if I choose Linux over Windows ....... Microsoft don't have a monopoly ?

This is exactly the point. Microsoft has a natural monopoly on Windows; you can't get it from any other manufacturer. Linux has a natural monopoly on Linux. But it doesn't make them anti-competitive as long as they stay within the law; and Microsoft in particular has had its fair share of anti-trust rulings thrown at it but it still exists and is doing very well thank you very much.

Regards
James Conaghan