Who's Holding BTC?

[dee]

Yeah... thats a peach of a story. Poor guy.

Ive moaned about this before, but i had set up to mine in about 2010, got red herringued by work and just never got back to it. Never pressed go. What a muppet with 20/20 hindsight etc

 

[Admin]

Only thing that has held me off from purchasing into Bitcoin, was the fact that I'm bitter as hell about missing such a good opportunity but more importably it's the complexity of it. We've all heard the horror stories about the "would be" millionaires who lost their hard drive, or accidentally wiped out their wallet lol. Jesus. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I mean, how would you go about your life knowing that you had £50 of Bitcoins on a hard drive somewhere since 2009

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/man...h-of-bitcoins-and-city-wont-let-him-look.html

RIP to that guy.

Love hearing about the success stories though. What a life.

I agree, it would be hard to get your head straight again. I don't know how you'd live with it. Strange how he never kept a copy of the seed phrase. Terrible article BTW...bitcoins dont live on the device only the private keys do.

 

[ian]

The 'average person' use services like Coinbase etc. Paypal isn't going to bring anything new that a company like Coinbase doesn't already (apart from brand recognition and trust.)

The average person doesn't use anything at all, which is why PP could be a quick easy gateway into 'just buying a bit' and storing it on their system so no technical knowledge required.

Coinbase has 35 million customers who know a little about crypto. PP has 286 million customers, many of them don't know what Bitcoin is, that is the market.

 

[Admin]

Yep, our man Trauniner doesn't get it. If you've ever been through KYC, holding your Passport next to your face on a webcam, done an online interview, tried to use localbitcoins etc you'd understand. Most people haven't heard of coinbase, they have Paypal. Hundreds of millions even have an account, they can simply sign in and buy crypto. Game changer for those interested who have never found the time to understand crypto or learn how to buy it and who from.

 

[Murray]

Bitcoins problem on grabbing the 'average person' market, isn't access; it's what use and value it provides.

When the general public hear someone bought bitcoin for $4000 in March and it went to $25,000 in a year or two they will flock to it to invest

They will probably be getting in on the end when it's spiking, get spanked in the short term and sell at a loss out of fear but that's bubbles

 

[Admin]

@Trauiner - OK you want to be right and need to be right so you are right. See ya...I'm off to spend some bitcoin!

 

[ian]

That's a different issue alltogether.

The average person doesn't use Bitcoin because they have literally no reason to. Why do you think that will change when they can use Paypal to buy it?

To me, it's just this constant problem with BTC holders, where they chase dreams and reason of what will cause them to get rich.

Bitcoins problem on grabbing the 'average person' market, isn't access; it's what use and value it provides.

Same can be said for gold, yet millions invest in that with no intention of spending it. PP is an immeasurable opportunity for those with little knowledge to buy some, rather than a vehicle of payment (which I've never subscribed to personally).

I'm not chasing dreams but was at the start of my journey. No different for anyone starting today.

 

[ian]

It's not about being right. Infact, I hope I'm wrong as I'll make a lot of money.

You are invested despite your alternative view?

 

[ian]

If it does cause a massive bubble, it's going to leave BTC in a very bad place and the average user put off for life. This large bubble BTC holders are holding out for, could be the very thing that ruins BTC from ever being mass adopted.

That could be said since 2009, massive bubbles, huge 90% drops, yet it keeps growing.

 

[Murray]

They've been hearing that for ever and most people think it's a scam or something; as they don't understand it properly.

That's why paypal adopting it is big, trust and lower barrier to entry

Trust+lower barrier to entry+fear+greed = $$$$$$$$$$ bitcoin

 

[ian]

I've traded a few million pounds in trading volume of BTC (not profit of course, just volume), so I'm invested in that way.

I still hold quite a decent amount of BTC but my only alternative view is that Paypal will not be the gamechanger for BTC, that people think it will be.

The average user still needs to understand what BTC is and what value it provides them; which at present isn't much apart from a potential get rich quick scheme. (Which we know how that always ends up.)

I agree with the point that PP isn't the silver bullet, but anything that brings potential greater understanding and adoption to the masses can't be seen as anything but a positive. There is no bigger platform out there to offer this as an option to the 'average' person; but it isn't going to be what shifts the market, institutional buy in will, and has been the cause of recent highs.

Bitcoin is still at the beginning of a long journey and despite the price fluctuations, has been much less volatile than gold, stocks, etc, in their infancy. We might look back on today thinking Bitcoin is expensive to buy right now, but might actually have been a bargain at this valuation. From what you've said though, you appear to trade it, rather than invest in it, so expect that might be why you don't view it in the same way; I see it as a long term investment.

 

[dee]

As institutional big boys get involved ( as they are ) it will filter down. I don't think it will ever become the digital currency of the masses as its no where nimble enough, and there are far better alternative options. It is however increasingly being seen as a store of wealth though, so digital gold. I think as @ian said, there's a long way 'up' still to go and in 15 years we'll be facepalming at the current price.

 

[websaway]

As institutional big boys get involved ( as they are ) it will filter down. I don't think it will ever become the digital currency of the masses as its no where nimble enough, and there are far better alternative options. It is however increasingly being seen as a store of wealth though, so digital gold. I think as @ian said, there's a long way 'up' still to go and in 15 years we'll be facepalming at the current price.

What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

 

[ian]

What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

It's virtual, not invisible. Demand underpins it, same as any other asset class, a perceived value.

 

[dee]

What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

100% completely valid point. But what underpins most things these days ?...acceptance ... as far as i'm aware GBP is commonly perceived as being pegged to gold. Used to be. Not any more , in fact since 1931. Its its value determined only by acceptance by the national and international economy.

Current market cap of BTC is about 200 billion and on the way up. It's gaining acceptance.

 

[websaway]

It's virtual, not invisible. Demand underpins it, same as any other asset class, a perceived value.

Semantics aside. Asset values are determined by rarity and supply and demand. My question was really around the fact that gold cannot be replicated but a virtual currency can, that's ok if something underpins the value, but was try to find out if anything other than mostly speculation dictates it's value. Basically seeing what makes it different to any other pyramid scheme.

 

[websaway]

100% completely valid point. But what underpins most things these days ?...acceptance ... as far as i'm aware GBP is commonly perceived as being pegged to gold. Used to be. Not any more , in fact since 1931. Its its value determined only by acceptance by the national and international economy.

Current market cap of BTC is about 200 billion and on the way up. It's gaining acceptance.

I gather by replies so far the answer to my question is nothing underpins it other than the desire to use it or hold it based on the desire to create profit. that's ok it's as i thought it was. If it could not be replicated then that in itself would underpin a value, so uniqueness value would be something to actually hang one's hat on.

 

[Admin]

Semantics aside. Asset values are determined by rarity and supply and demand. My question was really around the fact that gold cannot be replicated but a virtual currency can, that's ok if something underpins the value, but was try to find out if anything other than mostly speculation dictates it's value. Basically seeing what makes it different to any other pyramid scheme.

Something does underpin its value, a multi-billion decentralised Server network....you know ....like the internet...that seemed to take off a bit. It's a significant barrier to entry for new crypto currencies.

 

[websaway]

Something does underpin its value, a multi-billion decentralised Server network....you know ....like the internet...that seemed to take off a bit. It's a significant barrier to entry for new crypto currencies.

thanks, so for now the cost of replicating it is a barrier to new entrants. Certainly when any pyramid scheme that I looked at in the nineties, that was always the argument for guaranteed success . And always a comparison that had been an overwhelming success.
Still nothing actually underpins the currency because as I understand it one doesn't get shares in the "multi-billion decentralised server network" should the currency revert back to zero.

 

[Highway]

The value of BTC is generally underpinned by the cost of the electricity people are willing to spend to mine it in the first place. Every time the value of BTC collapses, large sections of the mining network are switched off because at those times it's cheaper to buy it on the market than it is to mine for new blocks. When the parity cost of mining versus buying is reached the market focus changes... more mining competition means blocks are harder to mine and therefore more expensive in terms of the processor burn of electricity. When bitcoins popularity goes up, there's more competition, the algorymth reacts to this and makes it harder to solve the "puzzle" you need to mine blocks, so the electricity required increases globally to keep up with this.

This is also one of the reasons for the locations of the mass farms... China has many of them because china still burns coal for electricity and they have so much coal that wholesale electricity is really cheap. It's also why things like hydroelectric powered mining is so popular privately, as once you've bought or built the facility the sea doesn't charge you for the waves and tides Hence the buying or disused renewable power stations in places like Australia.

So in short the Bitcoin network's entire value is based on the wanton destruction of resources that could be used for things like heating for the poor. It's becoming an outdated dinosaur now (although it has been immensely valuable in that it has created a new asset class and a new global economy)... There are much better alternatives on the horizon which I believe will oust Bitcoin in the end, because ultimately things are only worth what people will pay for them, and as was discussed earlier in the thread, people value national currencies that have no tacit underpinning real world value, it's basically a consensus of trust.

With my best wishes