unfair terms in RoR dropcatcher's T&C

[dee]

I feel the need to clarify once more.

I do have 250 catch credits remaining on account from the RoR release. After checking my credit card statement and the account logs, it looks like I actually only booked 225 RoR domains. No idea why I have 250 credits now.

Just in case I got the extra credits as some kind of compensation: They are useless to me. I am a German domainer, and I am investing in .de only. The .uk RoR release was once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me. So extra credits won't help compensating. I might be consuming 1 .uk catch per year in future. And I am not getting 250 years old.

I am not in remorse. Just out of the 225 domains I got listed at DC, I got 65 at another drop catcher (WEBGURU), that is a 29% success rate. So the domains can't have all been that premium. Plus given the fact, that I started listing at DC on June 29, when all super premiums were long gone.

Just as my "opponent", I will not publish my own account statistics of DC's performance during RoR week for the obvious reasons, just this much:
-On July 1, DC did not even start catching before 14:07 (in minute 8)
-Catch Bonuses (extra cash bonus for being higher in the queue) were not honoured at all - just as an example: my highest catch bonus of GBP 1077 for a single domain was sent in minute 5, while others with no catch bonus were fired away in minute 1. So the agreed service is of unsatisfactory or poor quality, maybe it's even negligence.

Genuine question.How can you tell when someone elses requests are fired ? Im lost on that one.

 

[stitchbob]

I'd be interested to know how these terms and conditions, particularly in the case of the RoR release, comply with the Distance Selling Regulations and Unfair Contract Terms Act.

Neither of those regulations are relevant to a B2B contract. Businesses are assumed to be aware of the agreements they enter into and will generally be held to the terms in the contract. You'd have a tough time convincing a court that a £7k order for domain names is a consumer purchase.

 

[dougs]

Dropcatcher has a reputation for what it does and has a stated method of working, like it or not. Buyer accept rules to play in a risky game...if they had caught all 250 names would they be offering to let Dropcatcher have them in and split profits in an auction? Probably not. Is this really a debate for the open?

 

[daxio]

If another dropcatcher caught 39 from the same list there were clearly many non-premiums in that list. Was it really the exact same list?

 

[tim171080]

Out of the 225 orders at dropcatcher, 65 (29%) were caught by my other drop catcher (webguru). And yes, at least half of these 65 were non-premium, because I was the ONLY bidder at webguru. They accepted multiple bidders.

I even put a "catch bonus" at dropcatcher (between £5 and £1077) on every single domain. But not one catch.

 

[diablo]

Tim, with respect, I think you've been a little naive here however, while it may be legal to take so much money from someone in return for nothing, it's morally repugnant!

Morally repugnant? There are those that find domain catching itself "morally repugnant". Others who find any capitalist / market transaction "morally repugnant".

Money was taken with very clear terms in return for the chance to catch domain names, not in return for nothing.

 

[lazarus]

Are you going to share the list?

 

[Siusaidh]

I might be missing something, but 29% of all the domains you tried to catch is a good result isn't it? Did other people here, even prioritising their own names, manage to get a better % result.

I used multiple sources to get the names I wanted. Some of those catchers did well for me, while some didn't catch any. But if outcomes are what we really want, and that's certainly what I wanted, then you got the outcome you wanted, didn't you - because I think I, and most people here, would be happy with a 29% catch rate for the domains we targeted, bearing in mind that 100s of people were trying to get many of these names simultaneously.

I'm holding back from discussing your specific complaint here, but if you got an overall good result, then surely you won? It would be unreasonable to expect you could have got 50% of names you targeted, unless they were so obscure that no-one else in the world could possibly want them.

I think a £5 'catch bonus' was a waste of space in such a competitive situation as this. If I wanted priority listing I may have spent much more than that. And even then it would guarantee nothing. It was a gamble. What was the average 'catch bonus' you gambled, taking an average across all 225 names? £5 is so negligible it's not really worth thinking it would make much difference.

I believe in spread-betting on a mass name release like this, when hundreds of people are trying to catch the names at the same time, because there's no real way of knowing which catchers are going to have success. I spread-bet and that worked as well as I could expect. You spread-bet too, and you got 29% of your names. Personally I'd settle for that. The terms and conditions are known in advance. What can never be known in advance is which catcher will produce results for you on the day. But that's the gamble and the decision we take. You decided to spend £x overall. You got 29% success. Honestly that is a good result.

I have confidence in the catchers I used, and I believe they are bona fide, and I have used them before over years and continue to use them. I know I can never assume they will get my names. But over time I have come to trust them. At any time, in the past or in the future, if they got me 29% of the names I targeted, I would be happy.

 

[PhilGreg]

I had about a 10% success rate with my main catcher and I was very pleased with that as it was about double what I was expecting. However, the other catch service I used caught nothing. But both of them operated a no-win-no-fee.

Anyway, your pre-orders must have been highly competitive because there were shed loads of perfectly fine domains left over after the drop that were available to register normally, without a catch-order, so your 225 domains must have been top-of-the-tree. It would be interesting to know if any of the 225 pre-orders that you made were left over and registered normally after the drop. I picked up 65 pretty decent ones that way, not A-listers or one worders but perfectly acceptable two-word branding names. Is your list available anywhere ? We might have what you want

 

[Murray]

Morally repugnant? There are those that find domain catching itself "morally repugnant". Others who find any capitalist / market transaction "morally repugnant".

It depends what chance you think you have of catching the domains booked

There was maybe 20+ excellent domains a day, but there was no point chasing them all because other people would have put them first, couldn't have a clear diamond 7th down your list, no point

So as a public catcher, when you know there's no chance of catching many of the domains booked, you know you're taking money for nothing and I would agree it's repugnant

 

[tomclowes]

Another Acorn thread that has a bit of everything !

Neither of the 2 parties involved in this dispute have answered the obvious questions:

- Tim, why did you ignore the obvious terms? I mean.. they are clear - you can't really complain.

- Dropcatcher, why did you take Tim's money. I would agree with @Murray that "as a public catcher, when you know there's no chance of catching many of the domains booked, you know you're taking money for nothing and I would agree it's repugnant".

If the answer is 'because I wanted the money', then.. fair play.. but it does make you a bit of a dick.

 

[keys]

Years ago, I had great success with DC. Historically they can genuinely claim to have caught many valuable domains, and thousands progressively down the quality scale. This is irrelevant for ROR release, but probably encouraged optimism and many bookings.

No refund policy, although controversial, is in plain sight. Ending up with not a single catch and a load of credits, having paid £7k+, is a dubious result. In another setting, this would have the hallmarks of a scam.

 

[Sean]

Morally repugnant? There are those that find domain catching itself "morally repugnant". Others who find any capitalist / market transaction "morally repugnant".

Money was taken with very clear terms in return for the chance to catch domain names, not in return for nothing.

I did acknowledge that nothing illegal had occurred and that the thread starter was naive to spend so much with no guarantees. As for my assertion that it's morally repugnant, my compass obviously points to a different place than yours.

 

[DropCatcher-co-uk]

Please could someone tell me what I can do to make it more clear than this.

I believe the order came through late on the 29th and I don't manually review purchases. No-one had any idea before the drop how competitive it would be or what strategies would work. I've posted my catch stats for the RoR and whilst I'd love to have done better I have many customers who were satisfied with what they got. Who knows I may have caught more had I not been monitoring so many domains for Tim.

 

[Nigel]

Dropcatcher caught us one - but one we really wanted so thanks for that. I didn't book hundreds of slots because they cost £29 each and as dropcatcher has pointed out (and they clearly spell it out on their website and at the point of booking) they are non refundable. I did use one of our credits to catch a nice .co.uk the other day so thanks again.

 

[Siusaidh]

I like to think I used Dropcatcher intelligently, and with previous knowledge, having used Dropcatcher previously and found it bona fide.

So I targeted slightly below the names that would obviously be in highest demand, and I started with a small number of slots for the names that were dropping on the Monday. Obviously I was clear that you don't get refunds for those slots, and sure enough, on Monday I didn't get my target names.

So I then used all my slots on a new set of names on Tuesday, and some of them scored.

So I then used more of my remaining slots on a new set of names on Wednesday, and again I got some.

So I then used some of my gradually diminishing slots on Thursday... and so on... I expect you get the picture.

In other words, for quite a few of my slots, I got to use them FIVE times, and by the end of the week, I'd got 5 of my target domains out of 10 slots (a 50% success rate), but that was because the common sense thing was to use the slots to work for you day by day. You play the system according to its rules.

Better still, with my remaining 5 slots I am able to continue to use those, again and again, in the months ahead to get more names I want. I have already obtained one more name that way. I can carry on doing that until they're all used up.

To my way of thinking, to buy 200+ slots, and use them as 1-off use, isn't really the best use of what dropcatcher can be used for.

When you factor in that I was using the slots again and again for 5 days, in reality they were only costing me a fraction of the money for the number of shots I got. And because I am a long-term user of Dropcatcher, every single one of my slots will be used, to get me good names I want.

To my way of thinking, using Dropcatcher for a one-off gamble to get names is not the best way of using the model, and arguably a buyer then has to think hard and consider whether they are really willing to risk so much on a product that works far better my way.

I'm not trying to sound like a smartass, I'm simply trying to say: before you spend money, assess the product, and consider whether it is a best option for what you want to do.

There were other routes you could take (and WebGuru sounds like it worked great). I used four routes, rather than put all my eggs in one basket. Total Registrations worked great for me, and because I know what they have been like in the past with roll-outs, I went for my most popular domains with them. Again, no refunds, but no auctions either.

I do recognise that this transaction really didn't work well for Tim. Nevertheless, you take people as you find them. Over time, I have obtained domains I want again and again with Dropcatcher. They have provided me with an excellent service. But I've always know that I might need to use the slots multiple times, and I just get a proportion of wins. I still get my money's worth. I understand the rules. If I couldn't use the slots again, I wouldn't choose the model. Using Drop Catcher for a one-off really isn't such a good investment as planning in advance to use them 5 times for each slot, or 10 times if necessary.

I'm just trying to explain the way I think Drop Catcher works best. And for a one-off event like a big roll-out of names, I think it's best to spread bet across more than one catcher/registrar.

 

[Siusaidh]

One other thought. It would have made financial common sense for Tim to just buy 50 slots for the Monday, then use them again on Tuesday, and again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday, and again on Friday.

That way, all the names would have been covered, but you'd only be spending a fifth as much money.

That's how Drop Catcher works.

I totally admit I think it's weird that Tim got zero names. I simply don't know the names, the demand, and I don't know the facts. But Tim's methodology, in my view, wasn't ideal. Why spend £7500 up front, when you have got the same product for £1300 using my system, of re-using the same slots day-by-day that week?

 

[RobM]

I very much doubt the domains that were backordered were the type that would have been 'available' for Tuesday booking at the end of Monday. Or could multiple people place backorders with their slots?

 

[Murray]

That way, all the names would have been covered, but you'd only be spending a fifth as much money.

Was it not first come first served? + wasn't there a cut off date for bookings (there was most places)

 

[Murray]

Please could someone tell me what I can do to make it more clear than this.

That's clear

What wasn't clear was with how the RoR release worked it was going to be very difficult to order a list and catch with much success

If catch bounties forced you to chase all the best domains, it made it much more likely you wouldn't catch anything

Should OP have done his research, yes, was it a good idea to buy so many catch credits, certainly no

Is it good to offer a service where you can buy bulk, offer no refunds, with virtually no chance of success (depending on the type of names booked) no

You're profiting on people being stupid rather than offering a good service

Just my thoughts (of which I appreciate I am sharing too many atm on here)