Nominet announces new policy consultation for expiring .UK domains

[WalkinDude]

I don't blame everyone who is cheating

It's like when toilet rolls started running out at the supermarket it forced you to buy some and hoard yourself even if you didn't want to partake

It's Nominets fault for nor enforcing the rules, albeit people are saying they can't enforce them but maybe they just have to go off it's obvious even if they haven't got hard evidence

Like when you have a David Thornton posting, you can't be sure 100%, but you know and can take appropriate action

Were this to be the central issue that of Nominet unwilling to enforce the rules vs Nominet unable to enforce the rules. Both paths surely lead to legal liability for Nominet and perhaps Nominet have realised this hence the rush to change the system.

I'm not a tag, only vaguely know how it all works and technical skills required.

Just saying based on this premise it's hard to see much difference between this and what happened to big tobacco. There was a problem, you were aware of it, you were responsible for the problem, it was doing damage, you sat on your hands, made huge profits whilst sitting on your hands, this denotes motive for sitting on you hands, in the future, everyone's going to sue you sort of thing.

As for the solution. Nominets reputation puts me off the idea Nominet should control an Auction and I'm against the current system where 10 people virtually in isolation get all the best drops [Nominets words not mine].

What is a caught domain name. I'm trying to imagine what would happen if when a person died their property instantly became free for any other party to claim and own on a first come first served basis.

For a pad in W1, we'd see people camping outside the property for weeks or months waiting for the owner to die.

For a few square feet of land with a shed on it in the outer Hebrides possibly not. How would you create a system that didn't force people to make unseemly, undignified efforts to stake their claim?

So step one is make people aware of this forthcoming opportunity. So perhaps nominee should provide drop lists for absolutely free to the UK public.

Next set up a means to declare interest.

Seems to me only fair way beyond that is a lottery. 100 people are interested in this particular domain name, by some independently proven random means, someone is a winner.

The domain will either be won by a domainer [highly likely], or a vaguely interested speculator who will sell the domain or auction it or hoard it, but system inherently creates barriers to hoarding dropped domain names.

If only one person declares an interest then that person has 100% chance of claiming the domain name.

Beyond this an aftermarket would develop so parties only interested in a quick flip would whack their domain straight onto an auction and winning parties with a genuine interest in the domain would keep and develop it. The winning party should be required to provide contact details so domain hawks can swoop in offering loads of dosh for the domain prior to it say going on auction which is better than Nominet making huge sums keeping all the auction proceeds to themselves.

The system should not allow you to auto claim all dropping domains. Nominet could earn a few quid by charging you extra if you want to claim more than say 5 domains per month covering the professional end of domaining.

Nominet shouldn't be operating like the tech giants and profiting from access to data along with earning from registration fees. The data, droplists, metrics data for any given domain name should be freely available.

Domain hoarding [guilty as charged], leads to only one winner and that's the big tech companies. Domains that should be competing productively in the market are instead kept in vaults. Domaining as it is, treats domain names as if they were gold, a value asset rather than what they should be which is a value-productive asset.

All the proposals put forward so far intend to continue encouraging domain hoarding.

Nominet Auction is a solution for those who have already made their millions in domaining your perfectly handing them the future of UK domaining. So right now the winners are Nominet and top dropcatchers. With a Nominet Auction the winners will remain Nominet and the top dropcatchers now using their millions to dominate the Nominet Auction.

Current system is why we are here discussing this.

Amendments to current system, well if you are ready to wager we won't be back griping and complaining about this new 'amended' dropcatching system then good luck to you.

Some have said the current system is now corrupted inherently and there is no need to disparage any individual dropcatchers who've had success. All the proposals are inherently corruptible and the pyramid would remain.

With a Nominet Auction the top domainers will simply collude/Cartel to outbid all incumbents for Premium domain names in a manner the FBI working with Mi5 wouldn't even be able to later prove. Over time incumbent bidders would just lose faith. We know this because that's exactly the allegations that are being made now regarding the existing system - collusion and cartels.

 

[Derek]

With a Nominet Auction the top domainers will simply collude/Cartel to outbid all incumbents for Premium domain names in a manner the FBI working with Mi5 wouldn't even be able to later prove. Over time incumbent bidders would just lose faith. We know this because that's exactly the allegations that are being made now regarding the existing system - collusion and cartels.

Why would there be any collusion with auctions? There wouldn't be any need for anyone to do It. There wouldn't be any benefit. Top domainers might often win the auctions but genuine end users will have a fair chance to participate. An end user directly bidding should always be able to outbid a domain investor who was going to sit on the domain for weeks/months/years trying to find an end user to sell it too.

 

[Murray]

I will be repeating myself but just to sum up my thoughts

Prices at Nominet auction wont be any lower than they are now when you buy privately or at independent auctions

You could argue they might go higher if this change attracts more international investors

There might be some end users on the ball and interested in the domain but will they be willing to pay the auction price?

It's rare to get an enquiry soon after the domain drops and it's even rarer they're willing to pay a serious amount, typically it's not for years someone offers you more than you would be able to get at trade price

The majority of Nom acutioned domains will still be sold to domainers - the idea this is going to benefit end users en masse is a total fallacy

For me it's more akin to the government wiping out independent businesses in a local community to replace them with their own franchise, but not replacing any of the jobs lost or providing any better service - most end users will deal directly with domainers still

^ On the topic of jobs, without all the small registrars to deal with maybe Nominet can streamline and fire some of their customer service staff too, then salary raises and bonuses to the board for such a beautiful job done hoorah

The change takes away an income from individuals and gives it to a large company; David from Nominet already scoffed at Domainlores reported sales since 2009

It takes away an industry that actually contributed something to real people and their lives to funnel that money into being meaningless numbers on Nominets balance sheet

Could Nominet punish cheats without proving they're cheating and be covered for that legally? I have no idea but that would be the best option instead of punishing everyone because they can't punish someone

 

[lazarus]

Has anything been proposed at this stage for the remaining domains that are considered non desirable? I would imagine that a lot of still desirable domains would fall into the category if the person making this decision has an un-trained eye.

 

[Murray]

Has anything been proposed at this stage for the remaining domains that are considered non desirable? I would imagine that a lot of still desirable domains would fall into the category if the person making this decision has an un-trained eye.

Maybe that's why they want t£10 prebids (othe than the £10), job done for them

 

[Derek]

Could Nominet punish cheats without proving they're cheating and be covered for that legally? I have no idea but that would be the best option instead of punishing everyone because they can't punish someone

How would you see this working on a practical level?

When the cheaters group themselves geographically, if they're in an English city you'd risk banning random people who are genuinely not linked to the cheaters. I'm sure plenty genuine account holders could drive to Hays house like they were threatening to, which means they're close enough to be suspected to be linked to him and banned alongside him.

It would be impossible to ban all the foreign accounts that appear to be linked without them immediately crying racism.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way around though. They're not punishing everyone, they're helping everyone by making it fair access for all.

If they start banning people for suspected cheating you'll just see cheating v2.0 anyway. The accounts will be in UK but spread around and there won't be the obvious footprints of certain types of surnames etc. The money involved is too large for people to just pack up and go home because Nominet tell them to stop cheating.

 

[Derek]

ext set up a means to declare interest.

Seems to me only fair way beyond that is a lottery. 100 people are interested in this particular domain name, by some independently proven random means, someone is a winner.

The domain will either be won by a domainer [highly likely], or a vaguely interested speculator who will sell the domain or auction it or hoard it, but system inherently creates barriers to hoarding dropped domain names.

If everyone involved is honest, then a lottery would be good.

How are you going to stop people having genuine people create accounts for them though? This method would be even worse then the current one imho. At least right now the cheating requires some tech skills rather than a race of who can acquire the most "no public link" people to set up accounts for them.

If we do a lottery I will personally control 100+ accounts by the time it launches, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

 

[WalkinDude]

Why would there be any collusion with auctions? There wouldn't be any need for anyone to do It. There wouldn't be any benefit. Top domainers might often win the auctions but genuine end users will have a fair chance to participate. An end user directly bidding should always be able to outbid a domain investor who was going to sit on the domain for weeks/months/years trying to find an end user to sell it too.

Way I see it a bunch of top domainers who are all drinking buddies can easily say you get next months one and I'll have the one after that or which ones are you after this month? Not even suggesting any of this would be illegal. I don't know.

Supermarkets have been accused of collusion in the past on the basis of agreeing not to compete in certain ways.


Won't always work. Auctions aren't really penetrable directly I'm more talking about a pattern emerging where [for some reason], it still remains the top 10 or so domainers winning all the Prime domains. There are many roads to get there but my hunch is that is how it will end up.

So lets say Nominet launch this auction and by no means provable to be illegal the same half dozen people win all the Prime Auction bids?

I'd prefer a system that guarantees us we all within a decent half-chance of landing a Prime Dropped domain name. That would be nice.

For me if Joe or Joanna Bloggs browsing on the internet were to 'win' a Prime domain name via stumbling on the Nominet lottery system and make a few for themselves that I can see as a path to increasing the number of domainers, and the probability of domaining accelerating into the future.

I've never been impressed with the idea you need world-class programming skills or huge amounts of initial capital, and well-networked for sell-on opportunities, to become successful as and make a living out of it. Just seems slow and ponderous to me.

 

[Derek]

Way I see it a bunch of top domainers who are all drinking buddies can easily say you get next months one and I'll have the one after that or which ones are you after this month? Not even suggesting any of this would be illegal. I don't know.

Supermarkets have been accused of collusion in the past on the basis of agreeing not to compete in certain ways.

If you got a bunch of domainers they'd all be arguing over who gets what. When the auction prices got too high for one of the price fixing group they'd be out, then probably expose it. I can't see it working.

It would also only take 1 single domainer to refuse to take part and start bidding, then everyone else would have to.

 

[Nigel]

Nominet put themselves about as cyber security experts

https://nominetcyber.com/

yet can't run an efficient domain release system, can't verify genuine tagholders, and can't detect flaws that handed high value domains to savvy techy domain catchers over a prolonged period. Shows they're not fit to run the .uk namespace and should withdraw from the cyber security sector. That they should now try to profit from their incompetence is testament to the greed that drives this organisation. They look down on domainers, thinking they are a lower life, yet they've helped pay their salaries and bonuses, and kept the domain aftermarket going, even when they trashed and devalued the .co.uk market by introducing the .uk.

 

[davedevelopment]

I can't see there being any problems with auctions, apart from what to do with the money. Nominet should not have that money in my opinion and I'm starting to feel like this would be a lot easier if nominet was state owned.

 

[WalkinDude]

Just joining in the banter and my overall opinion isn't that strong but way I see it:

If you have the technical skills you will always earn as a domainer by trawling data at a greater rate than your rivals.

If you have loads of dosh you will always earn as domainer on aftermarket Auction sites, private sales etc.

So why not make dropcatching a lottery so there's an entry point for ordinary people?

I'm aware this isn't going to happen because 3 broard avenues have already been decided but fact a lottery was ruled out means it's a closed-loop solution. It is in fact domainers and nominet colluding towards a solution. General public aren't getting a look in.

 

[Derek]

I think a lottery was immediately discarded as there is no viable way at all to stop people cheating.

 

[dee]

If everyone involved is honest, then a lottery would be good.

How are you going to stop people having genuine people create accounts for them though? This method would be even worse then the current one imho. At least right now the cheating requires some tech skills rather than a race of who can acquire the most "no public link" people to set up accounts for them.

If we do a lottery I will personally control 100+ accounts by the time it launches, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

I think a lottery was immediately discarded as there is no viable way at all to stop people cheating.

Surely you just make it so it's not worth their while ? So... some method of non refundable entry per lottery. Effectively a ticket ( which someone mentioned makes it gambling , which is a valid point, but maybe a way round it) So if someone has 100 accounts, they have to pay 100 entry points per lottery.

 

[ian]

Has anything been proposed at this stage for the remaining domains that are considered non desirable? I would imagine that a lot of still desirable domains would fall into the category if the person making this decision has an un-trained eye.

I believe they intend to leave the DAC in place for those needing it, but to avoid it being used to assist in catching, would be allocated the delayed DAC only, so 100ms delay (perhaps they will increase the delay). For any domains not marked for auction (I assume through expressions of interest), they would drop and be available to register via EPP creates which again I assume means specifically announced timestamps.

Speaking broadly, you have 3 tiers of 'domain investor/operator'. Tier 1 drop catchers, those who register domains for reg fee and then hold or flip (added this word in just for you Colin), Tier 2 buyers, those who don't necessarily catch domains, but buy from those that do (the reseller market), and Tier 3, those who buy as end-users, or investors buying to develop. Nominet's proposal will wipe out Tier 1 which isn't profitable to them, and make more money from Tier 2 and 3.

 

[Derek]

Surely you just make it so it's not worth their while ? So... some method of non refundable entry per lottery. Effectively a ticket ( which someone mentioned makes it gambling , which is a valid point, but maybe a way round it) So if someone has 100 accounts, they have to pay 100 entry points per lottery.

But there is no middle ground. Either a ticket to win a £40,000 domain is value for money, or it's not. If it is I will buy 100's of them. If its not I won't buy any.

I don't see how you can't discourage cheaters from buying a lot of entries (whether its tickets, accounts or any other way you slice it) without also discouraging genuine 1 off participants.

But lets play it out and see if it works. You tell me in theory how you'd do it, and I'll tell you how I'd cheat.

 

[dee]

But there is no middle ground. Either a ticket to win a £40,000 domain is value for money, or it's not. If it is I will buy 100's of them. If its not I won't buy any.

I don't see how you can't discourage cheaters from buying a lot of entries (whether its tickets, accounts or any other way you slice it) without also discouraging genuine 1 off participants.

But lets play it out and see if it works. You tell me in theory how you'd do it, and I'll tell you how I'd cheat.

mmm....okay. Off the top of my head.

1- Domain goes through usual drop cycle and is not renewed (to the point that would normally drop)
2 - Enters a grace period of say 1 week where people can express interest on Nominet approved / run auction site.
3 - If no one bids / buys ticket the domain drops at end of week as normal and can be reg'd at usual fee
4 - During week , people can buy entry ticket .... as many as you like at set fee per entry ...so effectively a raffle.
5 - At set time , random entry is drawn and domain allocated. No payment made at this point as entry fee was ticket price. As many as you like. If two people buy a ticket you have a fifty fifty shot etc.

Points to note.... number of tickets sold publicly visible as they are sold. So if its a decent domain at £10 per entry and there have been 1000 sold, you know your chances are 1 in 1001 if you buy a ticket. If someone really wants it they can blow 10 grand on tickets. It can still be won by someone who only buys one. Thats the luck element.

It becomes slightly self levelling in that theres always the chance a one ticket buyer can win. If an auction it just becomes biggest wallet wins.

 

[Derek]

Okay so lets use an extreme example. Helptobuy.org.uk, £40,000 domain

If there is normally 100 people entering these raffles it would be financially prudent for me to enter the draw 900 times.

I'll pay £9k to have a 90% chance of winning a £40k domain.

If you use a domain at the other extreme, one which will struggle to make £50 on Domainlore. I think at that point it won't be worth anyone entering at all.


I don't believe you can make this auction both enticing to enter, and cheat proof.

 

[dee]

If there is normally 100 people entering these raffles it would be financially prudent for me to enter the draw 900 times.

But surely it wont normally be 100 people entering unless its a pretty decent domain. Your average 50 quid domainlore domain is not suddenly going to get 100 people bidding at a tenner a pop when they know you wont get your tenner back and theres a 1/100 chance of getting it.

Helptobuy.org.uk was a specific link domain with a decent profile and potential for diverting traffic. That in itself makes it a niche audience, and there were obviously some people in that niche that thought 40k is a drop in the ocean compared to potential earnings ( whatever your moral standpoint on that domain)

Would that person have dropped 30k on entries if there where already 1000 single entries ? Knowing that they would lose 30k and someone who'd spent 10 quid could win it ? I doubt it..... but then maybe they'll say different if they read this.

 

[Derek]

But surely it wont normally be 100 people entering unless its a pretty decent domain

How many will it be? Can we have a specific number for talking sake please.

Its either going to be worth me cheating, or its not going to be worth any legitimate people entering at all. This method is entirely bust before it even starts.