legal status of UK domains

[olebean]

Lee

Whilst what you say is clear, it is equally clear that Michael thought you were already a member of Acorn. It makes no sense otherwise and logic dictates he would not have even mentioned Acorn if he didn't think you already belonged to this community. I just don't understand the fixation behind a suggestion that Nominet effectively told you to F.O. and sent you away without an answer. That obviously wasn't the intention no matter what spin is put on it.

Conversely, if I thought it was the intention, I'd already be on the phone to the board complaining on your behalf ... but at worst this is not Nominet fobbing off a stakeholder, it is a misunderstanding.



But the other 5 million can phone or email or write to or go up and see Nominet at any time they wish. This is simply not the big bad evil doing you seem intent on portraying it as. At worst it's a misunderstanding.

Regards
James Conaghan

Jac

As much as I would like to agree with you I can't.

From what I have seen on here there is nothing to suggest that Michael thought Lee was a member, nor is there anything to suggest he wasn't. Either way it seems odd that someone in michaels position and reported academic background would assume anything.

I also find it odd that Michael appears to have posted on acorn within the last 24-48 hours and not posted in this thread when it is / was to do with legal issues.

People can make their own judgement by that.

As a point of interest, i do not have a problem with him recommending acorn it just seems to be unwise to assume and that places question marks over his professionalism.

 

[Jac]

Written by texidriver's nurse

Keep taking the pills.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[olebean]

Written by texidriver's nurse

I daren't ask what texidriver is doing with the nurse

 

[Jac]

Jac

As much as I would like to agree with you I can't.

From what I have seen on here there is nothing to suggest that Michael thought Lee was a member, nor is there anything to suggest he wasn't. Either way it seems odd that someone in michaels position and reported academic background would assume anything.

I also find it odd that Michael appears to have posted on acorn within the last 24-48 hours and not posted in this thread when it is / was to do with legal issues.

People can make their own judgement by that.

<sigh>

Okay olebean, you're right, we should never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone, especially not those nasty unhelpful people at Nominet. But tell me this. Would you prefer that Nominet personnel didn't post replies on Acorn at all? Because IMHO it is increasingly looking like a pointless exercise just trying to be of help ... and I feel compelled to say this; there is actually no obligation on any of them to subscribe to this list or answer questions on any forum, but they do it anyway. The other 5.something million stakeholders contact Nominet by normal channels like phone, email, letter, or personal visit. And incidentally, Nominet is currently organising evening events with the DTI, CBI, Nominet Members and anyone else who is interested. Acorn Domains is welcome to attend any of them and see for themselves how nasty and unhelpful the people at Nominet are.

Sorry olebean, I don't actually mean to take this out on you, but interaction is one thing, constant ridicule and abuse is another. What do you guys think? That Nominet personnel are being deliberately unhelpful? That their sole mission in life is to thwart the Acorn Domains' lobby? Do you think they are cannon fodder to the whims and high expectations of the subscribers to this forum? Do you know how ludicrous that notion is?

It seems to me we are all so quick to judge other people at a much higher standard than we are prepared to allow others to judge us; and I'll include myself in that equation because texidriver (gawd bless his nurse) thinks I'm not at all fair.

As a point of interest, i do not have a problem with him recommending acorn it just seems to be unwise to assume and that places question marks over his professionalism.

I have no doubt there was no inappropriate or unprofessional conduct or intent on Michael Penman's part. I think it is pretty low of you to suggest there is. What I do think however, is that some of us are too quick to condemn Nominet and its personnel without applying the same consideration you want Nominet to apply to yourselves. Seems a tad inequitable to expect of everyone else what you won't demand of yourself. Mike Reid was right: sometimes it's like bashing your head up against a brick wall.... nice when it stops.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[grandin]

seven years

lets get things straight......michael got his facts wrong when my next email said who is acorn then clearly if jac was right he would have said dont worry I will answer your question HOWEVER he didnt he went on to explain exactly where the posts were.

Remember Trading Standards step in on the basis of UNFAIR trade therefore IF Nominet unfairly give advice via acorn then that is enough to make it UNFAIR. Please remember the DTI are on the board so alot at stake

Lee

 

[Jac]

lets get things straight......michael got his facts wrong when my next email said who is acorn then clearly if jac was right he would have said dont worry I will answer your question HOWEVER he didnt he went on to explain exactly where the posts were.

Remember Trading Standards step in on the basis of UNFAIR trade therefore IF Nominet unfairly give advice via acorn then that is enough to make it UNFAIR. Please remember the DTI are on the board so alot at stake

Lee

Lee

If you are going to put these wild interpretations on what Nominet personnel said or meant then fine. I don't know what I'm supposed to read into the DTI being on board but why would that stop me pointing out what I believe to be the gross exaggeration and misinterpretation in your argument?

IMO Nominet did nothing inappropriate in your case and as I have said twice now; at worst this was a misunderstanding. The DTI can make its own mind up.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[grandin]

liars

Nominet said the answer was on acorn ie. this board. Acorn is a different legal entity. To recommend me to go to this board was unfair to the 5 million other registrants...what more can i say.

Whilst being subject to the drs they said goto a chat room........unfair Mr dti

Lee

 

[Michael Penman]

Guys,

I think I'd be fair insaying that my email was taken somewhat out of context, and that I was genuinely trying to help Lee. As I've pointed out here before, I post here only in a personal capacity and my views aren't Nominet's (the 5 minutes for this post will need to be added to the end of my day!).

Unfortunately, if my posts and emails will be quoted out of context (a perfectly forseeable risk, which I should have anticipated, in retrospect), then I must stop interacting with the forum altogether.

My apologies for this withdrawal to those who found the information helpful, interesting or useful.

Cheers!

 

[grandin]

dig it out

Michael...being helpful would have been to answer the question saving me time going to a chat room.

You may say Personal capacity now but things were different earlier in the year.....My print out (i think) shows that you note Nominet in your profile. As such you could be misleading people to believe you are acting on behalf Nominet when posting when in actual fact you weren't...I have never seen a disclosure.

Either way Trading Standards will be able to clarify the unfairness of your actions. Suggest you contact the PAB member who represents the DTI he will be able to tell you what has or hasnt been done correctly...I am no expert so I'm afraid my assertions are always just opinions.

Lee

 

[rob]

I can see Grandins point on technicalities, however isnt this just being blown out of proportion?

Surely we want Nominet staff on here to post , in personal / private / whatever capacity.

Penman's intention IMHO was to help, and his reply was hardly different to saying 'look on nominet website page xyz'. Agreed Acorn is totally seperate, but to some registrants Nominet does not even exist , they buy their names from their ISP and it is a case of NomiWho?!

I have to side with Conaghan / Mike Reid It is a hefty leap to some form of conspiracy when really it boils down to a bloke trying to help you out and making a mistake by thinking you know of Acorn.

Incidently do you think the DRS would have been defendable if you had access to this board prior to it?

 

[Jac]

Nominet said the answer was on acorn ie. this board.

I keep asking why? Why do you think he did that? The options as I see it are (1) he didn't give a s**t and sent you away because he couldn't be bothered; or (2) he thought you were already a member of Acorn Domains.

I accept that No.1 is entirely possible except that Nominet has a high standard of customer service which they expect their staff to honour. Therefore, the law of rationale suggests he genuinely thought you were already a member of Acorn Domains, otherwise mentioning Acorn at all makes no sense. It does not equate.

Acorn is a different legal entity.

To put things in perspective see here. Scroll down the page and you will see that Nominet tells you to go to Tradings Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, Advertising Standards Authority, the Information Commissioner and the Internet Service Providers' Association (ISPA). It should be obvious to anyone with a sense of proportion that this is where Nominet thinks you will get good advice. These different legal entities have heard it all before and already know some of the answers just as Acorn Domains has heard it all before and already knows some of the answers. This is not abdication of responsibility, it is taking responsibility and pointing the stakeholder to a place of collective knowledge. If we take your rationale to its logical conclusion it suggests that Nominet shouldn't be telling anybody about any other different legal entity that may be able to help them.

To recommend me to go to this board was unfair to the 5 million other registrants...what more can i say.

I don't understand this point. Why was it unfair to the 5 million other registrants who generally don't ever have an issue with the Registry... and when they do have an issue they contact Nominet by telephone, email or otherwise, to get help.

I note that Michael Penman has now withdrawn from interaction with the board and I can't say I blame him. IMHO, this does not benefit Acorn Domains because you have now lost someone with valuable knowledge that has tried to help clarify issues raised here. This may not be what you (or anyone else) intended, but it is the law of cause and effect. People on this board want feedback and answers but when they are given freely and without prejudice they shoot the messenger, which is hardly conducive to democratic or reasoned debate. Personally I'm pretty sad that Michael has withdrawn but when he is misquoted, misinterpreted and called a liar, I cannot see that he could have done anything else.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[rob]

You may say Personal capacity now but things were different earlier in the year.....My print out (i think) shows that you note Nominet in your profile. As such you could be misleading people to believe you are acting on behalf Nominet when posting when in actual fact you weren't...I have never seen a disclosure.

from Penman profile (possibly edited?) :

Biography:
My posts here reflect only personal views. I speak only as an individual and not for my employer.
Occupation:
DRS Mediator, Nominet UK - Posts only out of office hours from March '06; sorry, no quick replies!

 

[aqls]

Michael should put that in his sig.

Grandin - drop it.

Michael we miss you!

-qls-

 

[grandin]

sorry

If I had known one year ago what I know now then things for me would have been very different. IF Nominet had created a forum and marketed that forum to ALL registrants over the last seven years then all 5 million registrants would have had an equal opportunity to understand rights relating to a domain name.

When a company decides to offer advice it must be fair to all those who would benefit from that advice.

Acorn members had and have an unfair advantage over the other 5 million registrants.

Jac's argument does not wash with me. IF there was no possibility of litigation and that all registrants were legally represented at the point of sale then I would agree. Note: Even today an acorn member has gained concern that domain names he holds (ie. domain names represented as peoples whole names) could constitute an infringement. Thanks to Acorn NOT Nominet he now knows more.

Rights relating to domain names has become very topical and unfortunately very costly if a wrong decision is made on behalf of a registrant.

To provide information in an unfair manner (to a select number) and/or offer advice via a DRS that conflicts with advice given therein needs to be investigated.

I have not forced Michael to leave any forum, if he does then maybe he has concern over his actions...I don't know...ask him.

Lets not forget words like bounce have been lost to trade mark holders when it is unclear whether the registrant knew any better, and the name is much more than that relating to the complainant.

I would also like to see disclosure of the experts. Whilst I respect there is no conflict of interest I am unsure to what % they are funded by Trade Mark holders. ie. How much of their business is derived from companies that have Trade Marks? Disclosure in this manner would not be detrimental to them but would clearly show transparency.

Lee

 

[sneezycheese]

from Penman profile (possibly edited?) :

DRS Mediator, Nominet UK - Posts only out of office hours from March '06;

...I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but what an 'odd' statement from Mr. Penman. So what's so significant about "March 06"???

As I'd said in another thread a while back, why did ALL the Nominet staff (including Ed) reduce their postings on here to nothing more than a small trickle on or around the end of March 06 time?!?

I didn't get an answer then, so will I get an answer now?

 

[olebean]

<sigh>

Okay olebean, you're right, we should never give the benefit of the doubt to anyone, especially not those nasty unhelpful people at Nominet. But tell me this. Would you prefer that Nominet personnel didn't post replies on Acorn at all? Because IMHO it is increasingly looking like a pointless exercise just trying to be of help ... and I feel compelled to say this; there is actually no obligation on any of them to subscribe to this list or answer questions on any forum, but they do it anyway. The other 5.something million stakeholders contact Nominet by normal channels like phone, email, letter, or personal visit. And incidentally, Nominet is currently organising evening events with the DTI, CBI, Nominet Members and anyone else who is interested. Acorn Domains is welcome to attend any of them and see for themselves how nasty and unhelpful the people at Nominet are.

Sorry olebean, I don't actually mean to take this out on you, but interaction is one thing, constant ridicule and abuse is another. What do you guys think? That Nominet personnel are being deliberately unhelpful? That their sole mission in life is to thwart the Acorn Domains' lobby? Do you think they are cannon fodder to the whims and high expectations of the subscribers to this forum? Do you know how ludicrous that notion is?

It seems to me we are all so quick to judge other people at a much higher standard than we are prepared to allow others to judge us; and I'll include myself in that equation because texidriver (gawd bless his nurse) thinks I'm not at all fair.



I have no doubt there was no inappropriate or unprofessional conduct or intent on Michael Penman's part. I think it is pretty low of you to suggest there is. What I do think however, is that some of us are too quick to condemn Nominet and its personnel without applying the same consideration you want Nominet to apply to yourselves. Seems a tad inequitable to expect of everyone else what you won't demand of yourself. Mike Reid was right: sometimes it's like bashing your head up against a brick wall.... nice when it stops.

Regards
James Conaghan

read what I wrote again!!

question marks!!

 

[grandin]

Links

I do not know the importance of the March 06, only Michael will tell you that.

On a different point this is how I look at the role of the Office of Fair Trade within the DTI.

The Office of Fair Trade deals with issues over Fair Trade.

Lee

 

[Jac]

...I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but what an 'odd' statement from Mr. Penman. So what's so significant about "March 06"???

Well that must be a conspiracy then. Best call Scotland Yard.

As I'd said in another thread a while back, why did ALL the Nominet staff (including Ed) reduce their postings on here to nothing more than a small trickle on or around the end of March 06 time?!?

I didn't get an answer then, so will I get an answer now?

Well you probably won't get one from Michael Penman because the penchant to be destructive as opposed to constructive has put him in an impossible position and Elvis has left the building.

I am compelled to say this; because this continued no-brainer conspiracy theory leaves me despairing of the human race; it may seem clever to always suspect the worst of those who provide your services but all it does is highlight who is reasonable and who is not and I will personally be contacting the DTI to give them my opinion on the reasonableness of what I regard as a witch hunt. You have a right to do the same from your own standpoint.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

read what I wrote again!!

question marks!!

Why? Did I misunderstand what you said?

Regards
James Conagan

 

[grandin]

Dti

Hi Jac, why would you contact the DTI to give you side, what side do they have at the moment?...are they aware of whats being written here?....whats the relevance?...do you know something I don't ie. that ole and/or sneezy have contacted the DTI?

Lee