July PAB meeting report

[olebean]

The problem is that while it might be clear that nobody should have a need to register names including "Microsoft" or "Citigroup", and that 'generic' keywords such as "Orange", "Virgin", "Easy" and "Apple" should NOT be blocked, there are also 'grey areas' such as "ebay".

For example, I should not register "ebayauctions" but why can't I have "MorecambeBay"?

You would need to manually check every domain, causeing both delays and opening up Nominet to the risk of legal challenges. Delaying registrations with extra checking will also add costs.

Agreed.. the whole process is costs prohibitive

 

[rob]

Agreed.. the whole process is costs prohibitive

Currently all .ltd.uk names are processed with checks.

For *.uk names a TM check could take place and if any sort of match is found the potential registrant could be informed.

However it would make bulk registrations a mare and increase costs.

 

[fred]

Currently all .ltd.uk names are processed with checks.

True, but there are clear rules with no grey area (as far as I know). i.e. to register a .ltd.uk you have to be a ltd company and the domain has to be representative of the registered name. The same goes for .plc.uk.

 

[olebean]

the domain has to be representative of the registered name.

That makes me smile! Here we go around in circles again :mrgreen:

Has there been a DRS involing ltd.uk? How many are registered?

 

[grandin]

ltd.uk rules

Are you implying that Nominet administrate rules in respect to domain names ending ltd.uk and plc.uk? and this differs to that of other ending domain names?

Lee

 

[fred]

Are you implying that Nominet administrate rules in respect to domain names ending ltd.uk and plc.uk? and this differs to that of other ending domain names?

Lee

Yes http://www.nic.uk/registrants/aboutdomainnames/sld/ltd.ukandplc.uk/

Users are restricted to one name per registrant, and the name that a registrant can have is worked out via a standard set of rules. We believe that this set of rules mirrors, as closely as possible in the domain name system, the system used by Companies House, so you should always be able to have a domain name which closely matches your company name and which has not already been taken by someone else.

...

There are two main tests in the .ltd.uk and .plc.uk second level domains.

The registrant must be (for .ltd.uk) a 'Limited Company' incorporated under the Companies Act 1985, or (for .plc.uk) a 'Public Limited Company' incorporated under the Companies Act 1985; and
The domain name registered by the applicant must be related to their company name in accordance with the algorithm set out in the rules.

 

[Beasty]

You would need to manually check every domain, causeing both delays and opening up Nominet to the risk of legal challenges. Delaying registrations with extra checking will also add costs.

Spot on - what is being described is akin to the TM registry - who pay Examiners to do just that and charge (and delay) accordingly.

 

[grandin]

yes

Fred, do you think Nominet are open and transparent? Do you think Nominet have the power to call an expert negligent? Do you think Nominet adhere to thr rules as written?

Also the page of the link does not state that Nominet administrate the rules and what specific rules do they administrate?

Lee

 

[fred]

What I do think is that this has nothing to do with pre-vetting domains, which is what I was commenting on. However,

Fred, do you think Nominet are open and transparent?

I think that they are as generally as open as they need to be. There are certain exceptions but I feel this often is down to failures of communication and/or misunderstanding the implications of actions - such as the DRS consultation/report.

Do you think Nominet have the power to call an expert negligent?

I have no idea, and what I think on this would not change whether they do or not. If you want to know, ask them.

Do you think Nominet adhere to thr rules as written?

Yes. However, some rules are proactive , (such as the .ltd.uk/.plc.uk registration limitations) and others are reactive (such as the whois opt out). If you believe that they are knowingly breaking their own rules, I'm sure we'd all like to hear your evidence.

Also the page of the link does not state that Nominet administrate the rules and what specific rules do they administrate?

I'm struggling to think who other than Nominet would administrate Nominet's rules.

http://www.nic.uk/registrars/systems/auto/request/

Notes
Requests for .co.uk, .me.uk, .org.uk are processed automatically.
Requests for .net.uk, .ltd.uk, .plc.uk are manually verified before processing.

 

[grandin]

Ok fred

Nominet cannot check whether you have rights to a ltd.uk (their words)....so Fred, what rules are they administrating?

Lee

 

[fred]

Nominet cannot check whether you have rights to a ltd.uk (their words)....so Fred, what rules are they administrating?

Lee

Who said anything about rights?

The rules state:

The registrant must be (for .ltd.uk) a 'Limited Company' incorporated under the Companies Act 1985, or (for .plc.uk) a 'Public Limited Company' incorporated under the Companies Act 1985; and
The domain name registered by the applicant must be related to their company name in accordance with the algorithm set out in the rules.

Nomint manually check .ltd.uk and .plc.uk registrations to make sure they meet these rules.

 

[olebean]

Nominet cannot check whether you have rights to a ltd.uk (their words)....so Fred, what rules are they administrating?

Lee

Rules or guidlines?

 

[grandin]

ole

The landing page that fred refers to is clearly a guide, but I asked fred whether Nominet administrate the rules as per the discussion and he said yes....So Ole can you answer

1...... Does Nominet administrate the rules as per discussions?

2...... What rules do they administrate if it has nothing to do with rights to register?

Lee

 

[fred]

The landing page that fred refers to is clearly a guide, but I asked fred whether Nominet administrate the rules as per the discussion and he said yes....So Ole can you answer

1...... Does Nominet administrate the rules as per discussions?

2...... What rules do they administrate if it has nothing to do with rights to register?

Lee

The RULES here:

http://www.nic.uk/registrants/aboutdomainnames/rules/

state:

The Rules as amended from time to time form part of our terms and conditions and are part of your contract of registration with us

and

2.5 Each SLD listed in Appendix A has its own specific rules ("SLD Rules"). All of the SLD Rules form part of the Rules. Where there is a conflict between the Rules and the SLD Rules, the SLD Rules take precedence.

and

Specific rules for the .ltd.uk and .plc.uk SLDs
10.1. Introduction

These are the specific rules for the .ltd.uk and .plc.uk SLDs, administered directly by us. They form part of and, in the case of conflict, take precedence over the Rules.

10.2.Requirements on Applicants

10.2.1. No Third Level Domain shall be registered in either the .ltd.uk or .plc.uk SLD unless all the requirements of this section are met.

10.2.2. All registrants in .ltd.uk and .plc.uk must be incorporated companies (not partnerships of any type or unincorporated companies) listed on the index of company and corporate names ('the Names Register') maintained under section 714 of the Companies Act 1985 (or later equivalents); and

10.2.2.1. (for .ltd.uk domains) must be entitled to use 'Limited', 'cyfyngedig', 'ltd.' or'cyf'. in their corporate name; or

10.2.2.2. (for .plc.uk domains) must be entitled to use 'Public Limited Company', 'Cwmni cyfyngedig cyhoeddus', 'Plc.' or 'ccc'. in their corporate name.

10.2.3.1. is a company of the appropriate type for the SLD; and

10.2.3.2. is not already the registrant of a Domain Name in that SLD.

10.2.4 No Domain Name shall be registered in either .ltd.uk or .plc.uk SLD unless the Third Level Domain can be derived from the official company name of the applicant using the algorithm in Clause 10.3 below. If the algorithm of Clause 10.3 below does not generate a name permitted by the Rules, your application to register a Domain Name within the .ltd.uk or .plc.uk SLDs will be refused.

10.2.5 Applications for Domain Names in the .ltd.uk and .plc.uk SLDs must state the full name of the company as registered and the company registration number, and the applicant must be prepared to provide proof of the company's incorporation.

10.2.6 If we become aware that the registrant company has changed its name, been dissolved, or otherwise removed from the list of active names on the Names Register, we may transfer, cancel, suspend or amend the Domain Name in accordance with our terms and conditions and by sending a notice in writing to the last known registered office of the company, or without notice if the registrant company has been removed from the list of active names on the Names Register.

If it is not Nominet administrating these rules, then there is no point in having any rules at all.

Why don't you try to register a .ltd.uk domain to see if they let you.

 

[olebean]

The landing page that fred refers to is clearly a guide, but I asked fred whether Nominet administrate the rules as per the discussion and he said yes....So Ole can you answer

1...... Does Nominet administrate the rules as per discussions?

2...... What rules do they administrate if it has nothing to do with rights to register?

Lee

As with any company / organisation, they can choose whether to implement the rules / terms of business per se or not.

That came from a county court judge!!

 

[grandin]

Ok

Fred,

I had registered a ltd.uk for my company and that was accepted. I then requested one with a dash and that was declined by Nominet cause I had one already.....but Nominet say they don't check what rights i have to register, thats the job of a drs expert

Ole,

You maybe totally right....they have a set of rules but when someone applies they can decide whether to offer those rules (as written or not)....but then surely they would have to send those different rules to the buyer??? or are you saying that rules don't apply in any contract...

Lee

 

[fred]

Fred,

I had registered a ltd.uk for my company and that was accepted. I then requested one with a dash and that was declined by Nominet cause I had one already.....but Nominet say they don't check what rights i have to register, thats the job of a drs expert

Which is my point, Rules and rights are not the same thing. Not letting you have a second .ltd.uk was because it was their RULES not anything to do with rights.

 

[grandin]

very well said fred

very well said fred..

So are we in agreement that the rules may allow you to register a domain name but this does not necessary give you rights to that domain name. AND importantly as you said Fred....the rules are totally separate to your rights....the rules as set out in clause 10 and are administrated by Nominet?

Do you agree ole?

Lee

 

[olebean]

Ole,

You maybe totally right....they have a set of rules but when someone applies they can decide whether to offer those rules (as written or not)....but then surely they would have to send those different rules to the buyer??? or are you saying that rules don't apply in any contract...

Lee

Lee

I think you need to ask yourself who are the rules there for.. Nominet can enforce them IF they so choose, on the other hand as a company you are contracted to those terms and any other they wish to add or change... No they do not have to send them, all they have to do is "communicate" them

 

[grandin]

ole

ole you are now being silly....Nominet cannot purport to offer me the same contract terms as another but offer that other a different set of terms....and then take £750+vAT for an expert decision on rights which has nothing to do with rules....if you are studying the drs you should get a grade z for that remark!