DNJ - Whitstable.co.uk - 12k

[martin-s]

Simply lack of due diligence from buyer sellers within there rights to exploit it.

Exploiting someone's lesser knowledge is part and parcel of business and negotiation.

However, at times it's unethical.

And I'd say that was the case in this scenario for the simple reason that most domain investors see .uk and .co.uk as the same thing - the primary domain for UK business webspace.

We're all aware of the potential for confusion and misdirection if .uk does eventually become popular.

The buyer may well have made the offer knowing that .uk rights are included, or may not even know that .uk exists. But that doesn't make exploiting their lack of knowledge or clarity acceptable.

Plus, law in the UK (take property for example) is changing to move away from caveat emptor.

 

[ian]

Don't you just wish they had launched .uk in the first place (had they been able to) and not the ugly .co.uk!!!!

 

[Skinner]

Hello, you must be new.

If they had launched .uk first, how would they have made millions on top of millions selling .me/org/plc/net.uk as no one would want them if the .uk was there.

Don't you just wish they had launched .uk in the first place (had they been able to) and not the ugly .co.uk!!!!

 

[namealot]

Exploiting someone's lesser knowledge is part and parcel of business and negotiation.

However, at times it's unethical.

And I'd say that was the case in this scenario for the simple reason that most domain investors see .uk and .co.uk as the same thing - the primary domain for UK business webspace.

We're all aware of the potential for confusion and misdirection if .uk does eventually become popular.

The buyer may well have made the offer knowing that .uk rights are included, or may not even know that .uk exists. But that doesn't make exploiting their lack of knowledge or clarity acceptable.

Plus, law in the UK (take property for example) is changing to move away from caveat emptor.

Who’s to blame nominet, sedo, seller or reversal buyer aware but seller not or buyer thinks sellers not… Is it non disclosure, fraud, ignorance etc?

Ethics of domianing in general is dependant on what side of the fence some see it as Entrepreneurial, others Unethical Business Practice…

One thing you can be sure of if a loophole exists it will be exploited.

 

[carmen]

I know of the guy who bought the domain and he assumed that the .uk extension would be passed to him on the .co.uk sale. When he went to register the .uk it became clear that website brokers had registered it on the same day that the offer was accepted. He has attempted to contact Website brokers but they haven't replied to any of his messages and he is considering legal advise after speaking to Nominet. Sedo haven't responded to his emails as of yet.

 

[bonusmedia]

I know of the guy who bought the domain and he assumed that the .uk extension would be passed to him on the .co.uk sale. When he went to register the .uk it became clear that website brokers had registered it on the same day that the offer was accepted. He has attempted to contact Website brokers but they haven't replied to any of his messages and he is considering legal advise after speaking to Nominet. Sedo haven't responded to his emails as of yet.

Listing a domain with rights and then removing them after accepting an offer is not on.

Both Sedo and Nominet should take some responsibility for stopping this happening but the fault is with the seller.

It's about time there was a test case, it keeps happening.

 

[AssetDomains]

Listing a domain with rights and then removing them after accepting an offer is not on.

Both Sedo and Nominet should take some responsibility for stopping this happening but the fault is with the seller.

It's about time there was a test case, it keeps happening.

To be honest I think its sedo that has to 100% responsibility for anything they sell via there marketplace.
How hard would it be to put in some sort of checkbox or message like domainlore did within a few days of .uk

I'm not sure what can be done about private sales though. I cant really see nominet wanting to get to involved in the aftermarket.

 

[Retired_Member38]

Listing a domain with rights and then removing them after accepting an offer is not on.

I said this before, but its the equivalent of you turning up to view my car and making an offer on it.

Then me removing a couple of bits that you hopefully won't notice between the point of us agreeing a deal, and you coming back with a cheque.


I don't really see how anyone can possibly justify whats going on here. Common sense would say you're bidding on an item 'as is' at that point in time. And thats the case whether its a car, a bookshelf, a potato or a domain name. You shouldn't need to go through everything with "and is this stereo included, is this spark plug included..."

Though with one 'senior member' openly ripping a buyer in this fashion and then boasting about it, its no real surprise that domainers aren't pushing the issue with Sedo to fix it.

 

[mojoco]

In Websitebrokers defence, it is highly likely that the domain had been listed since long before the introduction of .uk and they were unaware of Sedo's terms wrt to the inclusion of .uk.

Fault sits 100% with Sedo imo.

 

[ian]

Common sense would say you're bidding on an item 'as is' at that point in time.

This is the exactly right, when the buyer makes an offer, it is on the basis of what is for sale at the time (i.e. .co.uk with rights to .uk; not when the seller decides to accept the offer.

I feel the seller should be absolutely ashamed of themselves (if indeed they have done what we all suspect them of).

 

[Retired_Member38]

In Websitebrokers defence, it is highly likely that the domain had been listed since long before the introduction of .uk and they were unaware of Sedo's terms wrt to the inclusion of .uk.

Fair enough if its some random bloke working in Tesco and owns 1 domain name he bought a year ago... bu its completely unrealistic to say a domain brokerage business doesn't understand the Sedo rules here lol.

 

[BG]

Fair enough if its some random bloke working in Tesco and owns 1 domain name he bought a year ago... but its completely unrealistic to say a domain brokerage business doesn't understand the Sedo rules here lol.

Totally!! but imo the sedo rules surrounding .uk rights needs reviewing...

I have helped two companies so far get back the .uk after agreeing to purchase the .co.uk which had rights attached at the time of an agreement being reached, however, they required legal action... If the seller did register the .uk after the agreement was reached then you will see the .uk returned to the rightful owner "Daniel Jones" 100%.

If the .uk was registered prior to the deal being done then it becomes extremely tricky because you have two companies T&C's to deal with .e.g >

1. Nominet will tell you that unless you can prove the .co.uk was purchased or a deal had been agreed prior the .uk being registered in a new entity, the rights for the .uk remain with the seller (original owner) and that you should seek legal advice. And regardless of you entering into negotiations with the seller whilst the .co.uk still had rights to the .uk will be totally disregarded by nominet too - Negotiations are not a sale which means the owner of the .co.uk can still register the .uk whilst under their control based on nom's T&C's - No matter what we all say its fact!

The only time this would not be disregarded by Nominet is if both buyer and seller had agreed in writing that the .uk was part of the .co.uk sale, at which point Nominet would review the complaint and in most cases award the new owner the .uk domain as originally agreed.


2. Sedo currently say the following > Where one of our .co.uk domains has such rights attached, it is included and will transfer with the .co.uk to the new owner. To confirm whether your .co.uk purchase will come with the right to register the .uk version, or not, visit dotuklaunch.co.uk and navigate your way to to the "Rights lookup" tool. Enter example.uk, if the lookup matches the following, the domain comes with rights to .uk.

The Sedo statement (above) surrounding the rights to the .uk being part of any .co.uk sale via their platform if rights exist is very wooly in my opinion... and of course open to manipulation which is exactly what is happening as we speak! What they are saying is correct, yet those rights can obviously change at any time during negotiations which then leaves this massive blackhole. They need to be clear and direct, stating the following > At the point of entering into negotiation with the seller, if .uk rights exists they will be sold with the .co.uk.

Simply saying " Where one of our .co.uk domains has such rights attached, it is included and will transfer with the .co.uk " Leaves a massive get-out clause for the seller as they can simply put the .uk in a new entity - Sedo need to state from the "point of negotiation" as that will offer the buyer greater security and make Nominets job much easier when dealing with disputes.

The problem with the aftermarket at the moment is most companies are not displaying which .co.uk domain names come with .uk rights (effectively being ignored). Sedo and other market places need to adopt a simplistic approach... If you click on a domain name you visually see "This domain comes with .uk rights" or "This domain does not come with .uk rights" - It doesn't need to be complicated and its not rocket science to implement.

As i said above, if " whitstable.uk " was registered by the seller after the deal had been agreed, you'll 100% see it transferring over to Daniel Jones very shortly I'm sure.

I've read through peoples comments talking about the similarities of maybe buying a car, and later finding out the stereo has been removed when picking it up, however, with a car you can see the stereo and the fluffy dice, yet with domains what you see is what you get unless otherwise stated... New buyers may not be aware of the new .uk rights, and those who are aware of the rights may not bring it up because they are worried about being charged extra for the .uk, yet when they don't get the rights to the .uk they kick-off (when clearly they should have asked if it was included in the sale).

With a few simple steps we could remove these future disputes in a heartbeat... I'm not a fan of good genuine people getting strewed over, especially when parting with large sums of money and potentially being held over a barrel at a later date to secure the other part of their brand.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out?

 

[Retired_Member38]

I wonder what would happen if the current registrant transferred the .uk to someone else.

It would certainly get messy. Moreso if the seller had spent the money that he received for the .uk as there would be no obvious way to undo the transactions then without an innocent party losing out.

I could see the .uk owner losing both his domain and money. If a judge ruled the .uk should have been included in the original sale then it would go back to the real owner, regardless of if the second buyer bought it in good faith. Which is exactly what happens if you buy a stolen car or one where the last buyer didn't clear the finance.

 

[namealot]

It would certainly get messy. Moreso if the seller had spent the money that he received for the .uk as there would be no obvious way to undo the transactions then without an innocent party losing out.

I could see the .uk owner losing both his domain and money. If a judge ruled the .uk should have been included in the original sale then it would go back to the real owner, regardless of if the second buyer bought it in good faith. Which is exactly what happens if you buy a stolen car or one where the last buyer didn't clear the finance.

It depends what a judge rules under Probably comes under Sale of good act? But purchaser of UK can play around with nemo dat rule also has a punt with estoppel (Reliance-based/negligence) or do the trade in Ireland which I believe still has market overt Btw that means you can even buy stolen goods and keep them lol

 

[Retired_Member38]

Doubt going via Ireland would save you as you could pursue it through nominet and uk legal system and avoid the new buyer completely. It's not like a physical product he can refuse to hand over is it. It'll just be taken from him whether he likes it or not.

 

[namealot]

Not sure they would have the right to pursue them through the uk legal system? Maybe Civil technically they have not committed a crime as the member state the purchase was made in it was all totally legal, What can nom do yes they could give the name to the other party but would they or make them go through DRS to get it and if new owner provides proof of legal ownership all be it “Irish” what would nom do then? I ‘m not saying go out steal a domain and flog it in Irish market more as a way to secure the uk name from being claimed by the co.uk I would assume nom would abide by member states laws ?

 

[Retired_Member38]

So do you think you can transfer all your domains to Somalian ownership and just do as you please with them :lol:

There is no way that putting them under Irish ownership is going to help you if a judge decided that there wasn't a valid sale in the first please. Nominet are UK based and thats what is going to matter.

 

[scottmccloud]

Not sure they would have the right to pursue them through the uk legal system? Maybe Civil technically they have not committed a crime as the member state the purchase was made in it was all totally legal, What can nom do yes they could give the name to the other party but would they or make them go through DRS to get it and if new owner provides proof of legal ownership all be it “Irish” what would nom do then? I ‘m not saying go out steal a domain and flog it in Irish market more as a way to secure the uk name from being claimed by the co.uk I would assume nom would abide by member states laws ?

Nobody actually 'owns' a domain name, so I presume if Nominet are confident that somebody has broken any of the rules and regulations that you sign up to when registering a domain, it can simply be taken off them, regardless of where they are.

http://www.nominet.org.uk/uk-domain...terms-and-conditions-domain-name-registration

 

[namealot]

So do you think you can transfer all your domains to Somalian ownership and just do as you please with them :lol:

There is no way that putting them under Irish ownership is going to help you if a judge decided that there wasn't a valid sale in the first please. Nominet are UK based and thats what is going to matter.

Alias I don’t think xeer is recognised outside Somalia but I here there are plenty of opportunities to buy boats and there’s always plenty of multination crew to be found sitting around and locals like to make sure your boat gets to port and they don’t charge docking or unloading fees either…

Really not sure what the outcome would be using market overt but plenty have used it with for other purchases would domains be any different?

 

[Retired_Member38]

Really not sure what the outcome would be using market overt but plenty have used it with for other purchases would domains be any different?

The domain effectively never leaves UK though does it. As its still under Nominet control. So you could try and say you bought it fair and square in Mogadishu if you like but imo its going to fail miserably.