Corona please read very important

[DaveP]

Total lockdown is coming. London probably first followed by everywhere. We can't seem to look after ourselves so it's going to have to be done.

The only way these idiots will wake up is a full lock down. Also the threat of a hefty fine for anyone with the symptoms not self-isolating would help.

 

[Siusaidh]

Maybe a travel pass could be given to key workers, which has to be shown before going through the ticket barriers. Being a healthcare professional myself, I think all these people still congregating and travelling unnecessarily are taking the piss of us. Taking the piss of everyone in fact.

 

[Siusaidh]

What I don't understand is why are some pubs and restaurants still open? I mean, today Macdonalds and Nandos announce they are closing. Fine. But it shouldn't be a decision from them to make. They, and ALL these places, should have been closed from Friday because they had to. Enforced.

China or Russia would look at us and think we are so soft. For once I would agree with them. I feel in this country we have gone softly softly, and tried to be trusting, but we are following the Italian rate of infection and deaths. It's basic: you take personal responsibility, or the country will take responsibility instead, and kick your ass if you choose to be selfish.

This isn't right-wing authoritarianism. It's compassion in exceptional times.

 

[dee]

What I don't understand is why are some pubs and restaurants still open? I mean, today Macdonalds and Nandos announce they are closing. Fine. But it shouldn't be a decision from them to make. They, and ALL these places, should have been closed from Friday because they had to. Enforced.

I think it was Glasgow had the right idea on this. They put out a notice saying that they knew some pubs are defying clampdowns so they had given police authority to health issue 24 forced closedowns that would be getting enforced immediately. Can be issued every day if needed. They would then be making a point of letting liscensing board know who had defied closures so they wouldnt get license. Waste of time for the Police of course.

 

[super-whois]

they had given police authority to health issue 24 forced closedowns that would be getting enforced immediately.

Police already had that authority to suspend a license for up to 24 hours, there is no new authority there. There are also ASBO dispersal options that could be implemented now, without the need for any new authority, because surely ignoring the advice and being selfish is Anti-Social Behaviour.

Problem as others have said is that the Goverment are too soft.

 

[Siusaidh]

The only way these idiots will wake up is a full lock down. Also the threat of a hefty fine for anyone with the symptoms not self-isolating would help.

I'm worried in case the government just targets people WITH the virus who don't self-isolate. That bit's obvious, and in fact they shouldn't be fined, they should be detained, because those people may as well be going out on the street and shooting someone with a gun.

The trouble is, the exponential increase in deaths is going to come from people who we don't even know if they're infected (and neither do they), because they are still being moronic and congregating, and travelling unnecessarily, and leaving their germs on things, and spreading the virus.

It's not enough for the government to "get tough" on people already tested and shown to be infected. They are the minority but they are not the central issue.

Boris Johnson seemed surprised when one interviewer yesterday asked if we needed to start using the police. It was like he took a metaphorical step back in surprise and replied "The police?" in a surprised tone.

Yes. The police. Say a pub or restaurant or arcade is still open. They should instantly close it.

Even then, if it makes the difference between 50,000 and 300,000 people dying... some form of deeper lock down is worth it. We're on a bad trajectory. I don't think it's time to dither.

Also, why are hospital staff STILL reporting shortages of protective masks etc, when the full brunt of the crisis hasn't even started? And why are we still not testing enough people (the answers clear - we don't have enough tests and test analysis capacity)... did we not initiate contingency action right from the outset?

So I'm a little impatient with the 'herd-immunity' morphed into 'softly softly advice' approach, when we need a strong approach now, if only to buy the NHS more time, but especially, to save lives.

 

[Richard K]

...because surely ignoring the advice and being selfish is Anti-Social Behaviour.

Certainly is, although as the ASBO legislation wasn't drawn up with this kind of situation in mind the statutory definition of "anti-social behaviour" may not be ideal. It says:

"“anti-social behaviour” means behaviour by a person which causes or is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more other persons not of the same household as the person"​

Common sense tells us that this is wide enough to cover unnecessary congregation of people less than 2m apart, but a lot depends on whether the definition covers not only cases of direct harm but also where the harm is indirect.

Perhaps there's already an answer to that one (I just don't know), but if indirect harm is covered then the authorities should be using these powers now.

 

[Siusaidh]

And since I'm on a roll with the rants...

I am royally pissed off with all the people deciding to de-camp to the Highlands or Wales - very likely adding to the load on the smaller-scaled health care systems in place in those less populated areas.

I have relatives in the Highlands - it would be easy for me to go and stay with them. But the last thing I want is for people to go swanning up there in campervans, or sort of going there for a 3 month holiday, and bringing infection with them (infection rates presently lower there).

Same with Wales. Did you see the lines of cars in Snowdonia this weekend.

I favour travel passes and road checks into these isolated regions. And I say that as someone who loves wild camping, and bothies, and the wild places. Now is not the time. If you're sick, stay indoors. If you're not, then maybe consider how you can help in your local community.

But don't run away somewhere, where at this time, you're really not wanted.

 

[websaway]

I'm worried in case the government just targets people WITH the virus who don't self-isolate. That bit's obvious, and in fact they shouldn't be fined, they should be detained, because those people may as well be going out on the street and shooting someone with a gun.

The trouble is, the exponential increase in deaths is going to come from people who we don't even know if they're infected (and neither do they), because they are still being moronic and congregating, and travelling unnecessarily, and leaving their germs on things, and spreading the virus.

It's not enough for the government to "get tough" on people already tested and shown to be infected. They are the minority but they are not the central issue.

Boris Johnson seemed surprised when one interviewer yesterday asked if we needed to start using the police. It was like he took a metaphorical step back in surprise and replied "The police?" in a surprised tone.

Yes. The police. Say a pub or restaurant or arcade is still open. They should instantly close it.

Even then, if it makes the difference between 50,000 and 300,000 people dying... some form of deeper lock down is worth it. We're on a bad trajectory. I don't think it's time to dither.

Also, why are hospital staff STILL reporting shortages of protective masks etc, when the full brunt of the crisis hasn't even started? And why are we still not testing enough people (the answers clear - we don't have enough tests and test analysis capacity)... did we not initiate contingency action right from the outset?

So I'm a little impatient with the 'herd-immunity' morphed into 'softly softly advice' approach, when we need a strong approach now, if only to buy the NHS more time, but especially, to save lives.

I don't think Johnson will fall into the trap of being hard on freedom. The extreme left who object to stop and search would be loaded with ammunition for the future. He's got a huge majority, the support of the nation and is doing it properly.

 

[dee]

Police already had that authority to suspend a license for up to 24 hours, there is no new authority there. There are also ASBO dispersal options that could be implemented now, without the need for any new authority, because surely ignoring the advice and being selfish is Anti-Social Behaviour.

Makes sense. I guess they just made a point of letting them know theyd be getting a visit and potentially losing license so to pack it in.

 

[super-whois]

Common sense tells us that this is wide enough to cover unnecessary congregation of people less than 2m apart, but a lot depends on whether the definition covers not only cases of direct harm but also where the harm is indirect.

I don't think it's difficult to prove that it would cause "alarm or distress" in the current pandemic.

 

[Siusaidh]

Personally, I think we are in a war.

I actually think Boris Johnson has the chance to be a good figurehead (even if I don't share all his political views), because he has quite natural communication skills. However, at this time he needs to be a statesman, and I think he would be wise to front up with people from other political parties, on things where they have consensus together - sort of government of national unity of a kind. I actually suspect that the Labour Party would agree with the need for tight action and controls on movement if that becomes necessary - in which case, if only for future political reasons, get them on board to take a share of those decisions. The Scottish National Party are frankly ahead of him on wanting tighter restrictions.

As we are possibly approaching more severe restrictions, I think statesmanship becomes really important, and simple political survival instincts should make him consider a front of unity on some of these key decisions, including offering a podium alongside him, to make some of these announcements.

It would send a really good message of unity in crisis, and add imperative and authority to harsher measures he may need to bring in (and possibly should have brought in already).

 

[Alan Fletcher]

A friend of mine that's in the Police has told me that they have been briefed on a planned lockdown, there are nationwide meetings going on right now with regional Police forces across the country and the Armed forces as to how they will roll out each stage of it. They are hanging on until the 11th hour and peak infection rate as they are worried that they will only be able to enforce this for 3 or 4 weeks before they will see a surge in people breaking it, and they won't be able to hold back the tide so it's not complacency, it's factoring in how stupid a lot of the public are. It will land, the day we hit that marker. It's a back to the wall/ Rourke's Drift situation, no plan B, as if they don't do this - they expect 60% infection as a minimum. People shouldn't panic, as it will work - just stay in, wash hands, look after the elderly, etc. x

 

[websaway]

Have to remember the Tottenham riots and the minorities who wanted to tear down the Churchill statues. The left and the anarchists will be waiting in the wings. We do need to remember the people who were out yesterday were not drug pushers or knife wielding thugs, they were mostly law abiding citizens who need to be educated to the damage they may do.

 

[Richard K]

We do need to remember the people who were out yesterday were not drug pushers or knife wielding thugs, they were mostly law abiding citizens who need to be educated to the damage they may do.

How much more education could they possibly need? This information is all over the place now. It's impossible to avoid.

I despair.

 

[websaway]

Personally, I think we are in a war.

I actually think Boris Johnson has the chance to be a good figurehead (even if I don't share all his political views), because he has quite natural communication skills. However, at this time he needs to be a statesman, and I think he would be wise to front up with people from other political parties, on things where they have consensus together - sort of government of national unity of a kind. I actually suspect that the Labour Party would agree with the need for tight action and controls on movement if that becomes necessary - in which case, if only for future political reasons, get them on board to take a share of those decisions. The Scottish National Party are frankly ahead of him on wanting tighter restrictions.

As we are possibly approaching more severe restrictions, I think statesmanship becomes really important, and simple political survival instincts should make him consider a front of unity on some of these key decisions, including offering a podium alongside him, to make some of these announcements.

It would send a really good message of unity in crisis, and add imperative and authority to harsher measures he may need to bring in (and possibly should have brought in already).

The government don't need to offer anything to scot nats or a Marxist led party for support to enforce whatever he wants. He has a huge majority and experts at his side. There was a general election and the people spoke now we have the power to defeat this challenge, and we will. Softly softly does it if you can follow with a big stick.

 

[websaway]

How much more education could they possibly need? This information is all over the place now. It's impossible to avoid.

I despair.

Not sure, a lot of these people might read todays papers and even listen to their children and older relations and maybe see common sense. I do think the big stick does need to be kept in site but I would not give ammunition to minorities to create an agenda.

 

[Siusaidh]

Interesting point about how long the government could enforce lock down-style restrictions.

I do think there could be a risk from delinquency.

My hesitation with softly softly is that it concedes lives in the hope of saving lives later on.

I'd prefer sustained stringent methods here and now, with community onside to enforce it as well as police.

The reason to include other parties in a 'unity' approach is it widens the mainstream support and reduces law-breakers to a small number on the margin.

I couldn't care less about the political differences between Conservative and Labour at the moment. This crisis is beyond politics.

The important thing to my mind is 'working together' against a common enemy.

The enemy isn't socialism because the measures the present government brought in last week are the most socialist measures ever taken in this country.

With regard to enforcement, it is a very sad indictment of our society if people just don't care if they spread death to others, and at that point I'm afraid enforcement should be as relentless as it has to be. Policy shouldn't be governed by a fear of delinquents running amok, as if our country is like a weak school teacher who can't keep control of the classroom.

Policy needs to be driven by actual death statistics if we do or don't lock down, and then a clarity that it WILL be enforced, whatever it takes.

You say people couldn't be forced to limit their actions for more than 3 or 4 weeks.

Why not? Are we really that pathetic? Why not 3 months, and another 3 months later in the year if the disease kicks back a second time?

In wartime, you need to think Machiavelli. You wage war to win, no matter how ruthless you have to be. But not ruthless about letting people die. Ruthless against little shits if they think they can just do what they want, because they lack any care for others.

These people out there right now, ignoring the "advice": they are laughing in the face of health workers, and the community at large. It's like a few kids setting fire to a classroom, and putting other people in danger, and the teacher says I "advise" you not to do that.

If we factor in other people's unreality, then I think we may be surrendering the fight for a significant number of people's lives. It's as obvious as can be, that the more people stay in doors, the fewer people will spread it to first 2 others, then to a further 2 others, and then the 4 spreading it to 8 others etc.

So I'm afraid I think the measures taken so far are too soft... and I'm a social liberal in my views... that includes the socially liberal idea of protecting people's lives.

This situation is an exceptional emergency, and ruthlessness is essential. It always is in war. Not, in this case ruthlessness for its own sake: ruthlessness out of compassion.

I don't care if the Conservative Party has a large majority. It's simply stupid politics to isolate all your decisions, so you end up taking all the inevitable blame yourself further down the line. If I was Boris, I would get as many political rivals on board as possible, so that THEY all get indicted too, where failures occur. And from the point of view of the Nation itself, it is far better if we see unity in the political class over this shared crisis. You need statesmanship.

All politicians are servants of the Crown, and in the end, the Crown is guardian of ONE nation. This is a time where we need to be one nation.

Just my views, and your own views are interesting - thanks for the discourse.

 

[Murray]

I just went to a large tesco

Bit quieter than on a normal Monday afternoon I'd say

The shelves were as full as I've seen them for two weeks which is good

Saw probably twenty people 65+ shopping, which isn't good, but maybe they don't have anyone that can shop for them and delivery slots are a long wait


The self-serve tills have been spaced out now, one active, one inactive to keep people further apart

But it seems a bit pointless when everyone is passing you down the aisle like normal; I tried to be a bit more aware of distance and give people space, not worried for myself but don't want to pass on anything

 

[diablo]

Everyone is sharing the same graphic:

It's missing 2 key lines:

20-Mar: 177
21-Mar: 233

In other words, we have exactly the same number of deaths as Italy had at the same stage of its progression.

So we can project forward fairly easily just by scanning down the table's left-hand column. Which is horrid.

Except... that only works until we run out of critical care beds and ventilators. At that point, the figures won't match any more if we run out at an earlier stage than Italy did.

It's far too simplistic to say we can project forward fairly easily based on deaths separated by a two week period.

That's not to understate the magnitude of the problem we face, but to point out we are a very different country with very different challenges ahead.